Radiation Trait?

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
GarethL
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby GarethL » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:41 am

Is it worth mentioning that a military crew would likely suit up before going into battle, giving them a little extra radiation protection.

Sure, if you did fire a particle canon at a liner the casualties would be horrific, but then, what reputable navy would fire weapons at civilian targets...

Can you imagine what a modern anti - ship missile would do to a liner? (hint :it happened to one being used as a troop transport during the Falklands war).
paltrysum
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby paltrysum » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:28 am

Reynard wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:42 am
Captain of a Harrier announces they are in range and they have a Particle Barbette. The target's sensors can confirm this. Now the target has a choice, stand down and be taken or they open fire. It's a weapon to prevent violence unless the target crew are suicidal or the Harrier crew are homicidal. Gloves are off when the target is a warship but even then a warship with lasers may ponder the outcome facing a radiation weapon.
Exactly what I was thinking. I'm going to start the Drinax campaign soon, and my travellers don't fit the wicked pirate bill. In fact, they're trying to be "the good guys." Trying to see if they can be more Robin Hood than Blackbeard. I have to think that their particle barbette will either
  • been seen as a deterrent, as you describe
  • collect dust and rarely get used
  • only be used against other pirates and possibly Imperial Navy pirate hunters
Or all of the above. :D
PsiTraveller wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:06 pm
The Drinax campaign is not for the faint of heart when you think about it. Piracy is a messy business. Radiation hits are the least of the issues for the players.
Exactly the type of stories that are fun to ref, actually. Putting the players in morally difficult situations and seeing what they do. With Drinax, the players may come to see the Imperium as the enemy if they come to the belief that the Outrim Void is essentially a sacrificial lamb to be consumed in the event of an Ihatei invasion.
"Spacers lead a sedentary life. They live at home, and their home is always with them—their starship, and so is their country—the depths of space."
Reynard
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby Reynard » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:34 am

When I was in a Pirates of Drinax game, we used the Optional Called Shot rule and the Attacking Engines task with the Particle Barbette from Book 6: Scoundrel, page 46 to minimize random damage and take out the pesky engines if at all possible. Considering the hull of spacecraft, and that seems to mean Armor 0 too, reduces radiation by 500 rads it should reduce radiation damage to a range survivable until treatment can be given. Still, just give up.
Linwood
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby Linwood » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:15 pm

So - how intense is any lingering radiation likely to be for those brave souls boarding the wreck after for salvage? Something like 1-10% of the original damage in rads/min immediately after the attack sounds arguable, tapering off to rads/hr after a period of time.
GarethL
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby GarethL » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:11 pm

Probably trivial,

Particle beams aren't like atomic bombs - there's no fallout to worry about.

Nuclear missiles are a different story I guess,
kevinknight
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby kevinknight » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:32 pm

We actually ran into the whole 'how many people are affected' in our campaign and I came up with this...

Barbette/Missile - 1D6
Small Bay/Torpedo - 2D6
Medium Bay - 3D6
Large Bay - 10D6
Spinal Mount - 20D6xSize Factor

With the caveat that an individual can only suffer 1 radiation dose per attack

Oh, and we also came to the conclusion that only a complete fool would build a ship without radiation shielding if it planned on seeing any sort of serious combat...
Reynard
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby Reynard » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:52 pm

From what I gather, there is no irradiated material. The weapon, whether personal, vehicle or starship scale, produced a one time secondary radiation burst and that's it. I guess they're saying the radiation exposure time is too short to create a lasting effect on the surrounds.
tytalan
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby tytalan » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:43 pm

I wonder if that multiplayer was only meant for atmospheric use. In space the radiation would disperse rather quickly? I'm not sure if this makes total sense but it would soveld the problem. I'm leaning in that direction for my campaign as of now.
ochd
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby ochd » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:38 pm

tytalan wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:43 pm
I wonder if that multiplayer was only meant for atmospheric use. In space the radiation would disperse rather quickly? I'm not sure if this makes total sense but it would soveld the problem. I'm leaning in that direction for my campaign as of now.
The problem is 2d6x20 rads would never be enough to get through the standard radiation protection of a ship outside of atmospheres, which is surely where the weapons are designed to be used. So, it doesn't sound like that was the intention of the rules.

I'm gonna run it as written for now, and see how it goes. As others have suggested, I can always beef up the rad protection of enemy ships to present some more challenging opposition. They could also respond with their own bit of radiation poisoning as well :twisted:

Dan.
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby steve98052 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:06 pm

GarethL wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:11 pm
. . . Particle beams aren't like atomic bombs - there's no fallout to worry about.

Nuclear missiles are a different story I guess,
In space, nuclear weapons aren't like nuclear weapons in atmosphere. Fallout is radioactive particulate matter that contaminates the area around a bomb detonation. There are two main hazards: inhaled alpha emitters and gamma emitters that settle into occupied structures. Lesser hazards are neutron activation and beta emitters.

Digression: another difference is that there's much less blast damage from a nuclear weapon in space, because much of the blast in atmosphere is transmitted by the atmosphere. There's a tiny amount of blast carried by the vaporized weapon (and missile) itself, but most blast damage in space comes from sudden heating of the exposed surfacesof the target, which are vaporized explosively. Much of that blast is lost into space, but some is transmitted into the structure of the target.

A particle, meson, X-ray laser, or gamma laser weapon would deliver a lot of immediate radiation to a target, as would a nuclear bomb. But fallout wouldn't happen at all, unless a nuclear bomb breached the hull of its target; then radioactive dust would contaminate any breached compartments. Some dust could be decontaminated fairly easily, by sending in properly trained people (or appropriate maintenance robots or drones) with radiation hazard suits (including standard vacc suits) and vacuum cleaners, and dumping the vacuum bags somewhere uninhabited. Reactive elements (such as cesium-137) could combine with exposed surfaces inside the ship; decontamination that would mean stripping affected parts and dumping them.

Another risk -- from nuclear weapons (and possibly particle and meson weapons, depending on what science fiction is used to build them) is neutron activation. Decontamination is similar to reactive element fallout. But I'm not sure how large the hazard is.

In game terms, it's probably safe to ignore all fallout. Just assume that damage control teams work in vacc suits, and anything that's damaged by a nuclear bomb is dumped on a collision course with a star or gas giant.

I didn't mention fusion weapons much because they don't make a lot sense, but they'd probably be a bit like nuclear weapons in terms of fallout effects.
ochd
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby ochd » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:41 pm

This is going slightly off-topic, but may I just raise one more concern about the game balance implications of the Drinax Harrier and then I'll shut up. :D

With a particle barbette having a range of very long, and with the Harrier's 6G thrust, it seems to me that the players are going to be able to stay out of the firing range of most of the standard ships listed in High Guard and Pirates of Drinax volume 3. That is, unless I customise ships with faster drives or improved weapons, pretty much most encounters they have are not gonna be very challenging. Does that sound accurate? Or have I overlooked something?

(That's not a complaint by the way; I just want to properly prepare. If my thinking is correct, then I'll know I can't just pull out a ship from Aslan High Guard thinking it will offer a good contest but will need to have some custom ships ready ahead.)

Dan.
paltrysum
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby paltrysum » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:47 pm

ochd wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:41 pm
This is going slightly off-topic, but may I just raise one more concern about the game balance implications of the Drinax Harrier and then I'll shut up. :D

With a particle barbette having a range of very long, and with the Harrier's 6G thrust, it seems to me that the players are going to be able to stay out of the firing range of most of the standard ships listed in High Guard and Pirates of Drinax volume 3. That is, unless I customise ships with faster drives or improved weapons, pretty much most encounters they have are not gonna be very challenging. Does that sound accurate? Or have I overlooked something?

(That's not a complaint by the way; I just want to properly prepare. If my thinking is correct, then I'll know I can't just pull out a ship from Aslan High Guard thinking it will offer a good contest but will need to have some custom ships ready ahead.)

Dan.
I think you're right and that's probably the point. It will probably be a deterrent weapon primarily. "We don't want to have to shoot this thing at you, but we will if we must."

Problem is, the community is going to discover that the Harrier is bluffing if they never shoot it so the players will have to find reasons to irradiate some of their prey, otherwise word will get out that they're softies.
"Spacers lead a sedentary life. They live at home, and their home is always with them—their starship, and so is their country—the depths of space."
phavoc
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby phavoc » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:31 pm

If there is no radiation being retained by the ship from rad weapons, why then should anyone use rad shielding for the ship and not just the compartments where the crew will be during combat? It seems that if you concentrated the rad shielding in localized areas you could provide additional protection that would shield crew members - at least while they are in their protected areas.
baithammer
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby baithammer » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:48 am

Radiation Shielding covers the whole ship and hardens the bridge and is applied versus weapons being fired at the ship.
phavoc
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby phavoc » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:39 pm

Yes, but you are missing the point. Paying for rad shielding for the ship is pointless if you just need to shield crew during combat since there are no short or long term affects from radiation weapons.

That means your cost of protection would be much less since your overall area is considerably reduced.
baithammer
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby baithammer » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:30 pm

There are long term effects for mgt 2ed, its under the Environmental Dangers section and its not just the crew you need to worry about.
Jeraa
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby Jeraa » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:15 pm

baithammer wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:30 pm
There are long term effects for mgt 2ed, its under the Environmental Dangers section and its not just the crew you need to worry about.
You aren't understanding what he is saying. What he is saying is that it is only a brief burst of radiation. The radiation doesn't linger in the area for the crew to encounter later. You only have to worry about it at the time of impact, and even then only if you are in the area. Since the crew should be at their stations during combat, those would be the only areas needing the shielding. You don't need to shield the corridors, or staterooms, or entertainment areas. Just the locations the crew would be at during combat.

Some of the radiation should linger, but by the rules it doesn't. So there is no need to protect those areas where no one will be. That is what he is saying. Why protect the whole ship when only a few areas need it?

You should be able to pick and choose areas to be shielded, at the standard Cr25000 per ton of whatever it is you want protected. If nothing else, that means you don't have to shield the massive fuel tanks, which are unaffected by radiation anyway.
PsiTraveller
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby PsiTraveller » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:23 pm

The Harrier is a commerce raiding ship. It's intent is to cost the enemy a lot of money. There area few ways to do this.
1: Attrition: Repairing ships is fairly expensive, and profit margins are not great. The Particle barbette does 4D damage, plus the high yield bonus: 14 on an average roll, assuming 4 Armour on a target ship that is 10 points of Hull damage. This costs 100 000 Credits to repair, enough to wipe out the profit margin for any small trader for several trips. A j1 ship only gets 1000 credits per ton, so you just took out 100 tons of shipping profits.v This can be repeated every 6 minutes.

Extra costs for radiation damage to the crew. Missile damage can be prety good as well, especially if you get TL 14 advanced missiles (Theev, Tech-World are likely sources)

2: Stealing cargo: Once word gets out of the particle barbette armed ship smaller traders may be willing to dump cargo to save the 100 000 credits of hull damage every 6 minutes. The Harrier can scoop up cargo and then stealth away into the Deep.

3: Stealing crew and ships. If the Harrier breaks the piracy code and starts stealing ships to create its own Navy they have the choice of capturing and releasing the crew, killing them, selling them into slavery, organ markets etc. The ships would need to be processed and any restrictive protection programs rooted out. (Tech World, Theev) Then you have a new ship for your navy. This can result in hundreds of millions of credits worth of ships going through players hands.

4: Zapping starports from max range: Similar to hitting hulls. The 100 000 Credit potshot can cost highports, domes, etc a lot of money and generate a lot of publicity (for good or ill). Ground targets may be an option with ortillery missiles. WMD torpedoes can also make an appearance.

The 200 ton Harrier lacks the HUll points and armor for a protracted battle, but is great for hitting hard and running away. At least until the TL 15 Thrust 9 reaction force shows up. :)
Reynard
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby Reynard » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:08 am

"Problem is, the community is going to discover that the Harrier is bluffing if they never shoot it so the players will have to find reasons to irradiate some of their prey, otherwise word will get out that they're softies."

When the first ship decides to call their bluff and their engine section suddenly glows in the dark from a solid hit. The captain and crew, after being released whether as ransom or as a warning, get to tell the pirates really do mean business.
baithammer
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby baithammer » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:09 pm

Jeraa wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:15 pm
baithammer wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:30 pm
There are long term effects for mgt 2ed, its under the Environmental Dangers section and its not just the crew you need to worry about.
You aren't understanding what he is saying. What he is saying is that it is only a brief burst of radiation. The radiation doesn't linger in the area for the crew to encounter later. You only have to worry about it at the time of impact, and even then only if you are in the area. Since the crew should be at their stations during combat, those would be the only areas needing the shielding. You don't need to shield the corridors, or staterooms, or entertainment areas. Just the locations the crew would be at during combat.

Some of the radiation should linger, but by the rules it doesn't. So there is no need to protect those areas where no one will be. That is what he is saying. Why protect the whole ship when only a few areas need it?

You should be able to pick and choose areas to be shielded, at the standard Cr25000 per ton of whatever it is you want protected. If nothing else, that means you don't have to shield the massive fuel tanks, which are unaffected by radiation anyway.
The real danger isn't lingering radiation but accumulated radiation in the body, it doesn't go away once your soaked. ( Which is reflected in the accumulation rules.)

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