Radiation Trait?

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AnotherDilbert
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Radiation Trait?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:52 am

I do not understand how the Radiation trait is used in space combat.
Core, p75 wrote:Radiation: When a Radiation weapon is fired, anyone close to the firer, target and the line of fire in-between the two will receive 2D x 20 rads, multiplied by 5 for Spacecraft scale weapons. This effect extends from the firer, target and line of fire a distance in metres equal to the number of dice the weapon rolls for damage. If the fusion weapon is Destructive, this distance becomes ten times the number of dice rolled for damage.
Is the entire ship affected, or only a few metres of it?

The radiation effect seems to happen regardless of whether you hit or do damage. At 2D * 100 - 1000 it will inflict radiation inside a shielded hull on a roll of 11+, doing average ~11 rad. So If I fire 75 radiation weapons, 25 turrets, I will inflict ~833 rad inside the ship turning the crew into goo. Without needing to hit.

If the crew is in vacc suits, this is somewhat mitigated. Fitting the crew into Battle Dress seems to completely mitigate this, but that is only available at TL13+. Are we to assume that all crew should be in Battle Dress in space combat?
PsiTraveller
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby PsiTraveller » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:00 pm

It looks like they changed things from 1st to 2nd edition and did not specify how the changes work.

1st edition would have you roll a crew hit if you hit the ship with a radiation weapon.
1st edition pg 149: Fusion Guns: Fusion guns infl ict a radiation crew hit in addition
to any other damage. The bonus radiation hit suffers a –DM
equal to the ship’s armour.
• Particle Beams: Particle beams inflict a radiation crew hit in
addition to any other damage. The bonus radiation hit suffers a
–DM equal to the ship’s armour.
• Nuclear Missiles: Nuclear missile hits inflict a radiation crew
hit in addition to their normal damage. The bonus radiation hit
suffers a –DM equal to the ship’s armour.

Page 151 had the Crew hit chart under the Critical hit locations: Normally only a single crew would be hit unless you rolled very high and the ship had no armour. Starship armour reduces radiation by 500 (chart on page 141. Page 42 of 1st edition High Guard has radiation shielding increasing protection to 1000 rads.


Second edition Rules:
Errata: Page 77 mentions that Vacc suits and other measures protect against radiation exposure as shown on page 96: The chart showing that protection is on page 94.

No crew hit location seems to be given in 2nd edition. So you could argue the entire ship is irradiated, or that they need to fix Highguard or the Combat section of the Core Book.
Ship hulls protect against 500 rads of radiation (pg 77 of Core book). Radiation Shielding in High Guard (page 10) protects against 1000 rads.
Radiation Trait on page 75 as you pointed out shows the 2D X 100 damage.

If it does affect the entire crew then things get a little dicey for non hardened ships: With an average of 2D (700 rads - 500 protection =200 rads) per hit you can seriously wound/damage a crew with a few hits. That would be 2D damage to a crewmembers from each radiation hit. A few hits from radiation and you have very few crew left.

If you roll a 12 on the exposure dice you cause 6D damage and sterility.

Nice catch, this is definitely something that needs a look.

Follow up question. If a salvo of nuclear missiles hits a ship, how many times do you roll for exposure. If a single missile can cause a radiation hit, do more missiles increase the radiation damage?
Is radiation multiplied by the number of missiles in the salvo the way damage is?
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby PsiTraveller » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:55 pm

Another radiation question: A 5 ton Particle Barbette does the same radiation damage as a 500 ton Large Bay? There is no increase in dosage or number of people affected?
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:44 pm

I had missed this one:
HG, p77 wrote:Meson Gun Bay: Using dual particle accelerator technology, meson guns fire destructive beams that make a mockery of armour and produce intense radiation effects inside a target. Meson gun bays ignore all Armour and radiation shielding.
A single Meson Bay attack turns your crew into goo.
Nerhesi
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby Nerhesi » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:05 pm

Yeah Mesons radiation is eliminated by screens. So is fusion/nuclear radiation.

Their does need to be some description about the area affected depending on what is firing and how many things are firing.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:36 pm

Nerhesi wrote:Yeah Mesons radiation is eliminated by screens. So is fusion/nuclear radiation.
Ah, yes. But it requires A) successful Angle Screen, B) you have enough screens.

And then there is the all-mighty triple particle turret, that nothing can stop...
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby PsiTraveller » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:00 pm

and again the question does a triple turret put more radiation into the ship either affecting more crew, doing more than 2D X 100.

Space combat is going to end up looking like a battle drill in Fukishima. Everyone will be running around in those disposable coveralls.

And no mention of what the radiation does to the ship. It could get hit a dozen times and be glowing so much it does not need lighting, but does it contaminate the ship in any way? ALthough part of me is glad that there is not that attempt at realism, too much bookkeeping. And anti rad serum is available to remove the contamination so would probably be S.O.P anyway.
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:26 pm

PsiTraveller wrote:and again the question does a triple turret put more radiation into the ship either affecting more crew, doing more than 2D X 100.
Core, p75 wrote:Radiation: When a Radiation weapon is fired, anyone close to the firer, target and the line of fire in-between the two will receive 2D x 20 rads, multiplied by 5 for Spacecraft scale weapons. This effect extends from the firer, target and line of fire a distance in metres equal to the number of dice the weapon rolls for damage. If the fusion weapon is Destructive, this distance becomes ten times the number of dice rolled for damage.
Each weapon does 2D*100, not each attack.
PsiTraveller wrote:Space combat is going to end up looking like a battle drill in Fukishima. Everyone will be running around in those disposable coveralls.

And no mention of what the radiation does to the ship. It could get hit a dozen times and be glowing so much it does not need lighting, but does it contaminate the ship in any way? ALthough part of me is glad that there is not that attempt at realism, too much bookkeeping. And anti rad serum is available to remove the contamination so would probably be S.O.P anyway.
Fortunately we do not care about long term effects. Anti-rad drugs remove the accumulated dose of radiation. You need something like 1000 to 1500 rad to die before the drugs work.
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby PsiTraveller » Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:38 pm

Well that makes triple turrets rather terrifying, and rad shielding almost mandatory. It also raises some questions about cumulative rad exposure.

Ignoring the triple turret scenario since it is in the optional category, let's focus on barbettes.

Assume a 1000 ton ship with 10 barbettes. The target is a 1000 ton ship without radiation shielding. Let's say there are 25 people on each ship, 10 gunners in the barbettes, plus a few spares, engineers and pilots etc. The target has 10 turrets but no particle beams or any other radiation equipped weapons. Same 25 crew.

So the Fukishima class radiation ship fires 10 barbettes at the target. RAW say that the ship will take 10 radiation hits from the weapon fired and it does not matter if the attack hits? Yikes.

Ist edition had a roll for who got hit, and the entire crew could take a hit but mostly it was a single person. 2nd edition has no table like that, and a different rad calculation.
If everyone got hit then game over right there. 10 X 2D rads, assuming 7 for the roll is 700 rads minus 500 protection means 200 rads get through each weapon.
This is a 2D damage effect hit. Ten attacks in a round would be 20 D damage.

Or we clarify the rule to figure out if it is one person, or a few people like 1st edition and you have almost half the ship taking damage in one round. (10 out of 25 assuming no re-rolls on the same person)

In a couple of rounds of combat you will have dosed everyone with a couple of hundred rads each.

Then there is the cumulative exposure. If a person gets hit with 200 rads that is a -1 End permanent effect. In a few hits they are glowing. Does getting hit multiple times give them a base rad count for long term exposure? or do they get a chance to get some drugs into them before they lose all their END?
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:24 pm

PsiTraveller wrote:Then there is the cumulative exposure. If a person gets hit with 200 rads that is a -1 End permanent effect. In a few hits they are glowing. Does getting hit multiple times give them a base rad count for long term exposure? or do they get a chance to get some drugs into them before they lose all their END?
There's the "Radiation Emergency Applicator" in CSC that is quick but incapacitates the recipient and it only reduces the received dose by ~35 rad. If it can be used many times (questionable) it can completely mitigate at least long term effects.

The regular Anti-Rad drug is hardly instantaneous. It is also not safe to use multiple doses.

The endurance loss from cumulative dose isn't instantaneous either. I would let the drugs save you, but if you use a lot of Anti-Rad you lose END anyway...

Note that a single dose 800 rad will almost certainly kill you within two weeks (according to a random wiki page). A dose of 600 rad only give you a 50% chance to survive with hospital care. You will gladly overdose Anti-Rad and lose some END if you get such a massive dose.
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby PsiTraveller » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:31 pm

If you start treatment with anti rad drugs right away and get 100 rads reduced a day, I would allow that the END is not reduced because you got treatment. The sterility may take a couple of thousand credits and a high tech visit to a geneticist, if the player had an issue with being sterile. Some sort of Stem cell treatment to regenerate tissue etc.

I am interested in seeing what the fallout of all this discussion of radiation will have. :wink: :wink:
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:46 pm

Core, p109 wrote:Anti-rad (TL8): Anti-rad drugs must be administered before or immediately (within ten minutes) after radiation exposure. They absorb up to 100 rads per dose. A Traveller may only use anti-rad drugs once per day – taking any more causes permanent END damage of 1D per dose.
Anti-Rad must be used directly after the dose and multiple uses will hurt you. You can't use one per day.
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:50 pm

PsiTraveller wrote:I am interested in seeing what the fallout of all this discussion of radiation will have.
To keep things simple we need some way for warships to become immune. Or the issue can be glossed over in the fleet scale system.

Rad shielding is carefully dimensioned to not make the ship immune, so I guess Mongoose likes it that way.
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby ochd » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:42 am

In preparing to start the Drinax campaign, I've been looking at the radiation trait (for the Harrier's particle barbette) and had the same questions raised above.

It seems that even a single particle barbette is quite powerful. Reiterating what is already said above, on average it will deal 200 rads to the crew of any ship without radiation shielding (that's an average roll of 7x100 minus 500 for starship shielding). That's 2D damage and -1 END permanently. So, two hits with average results and that is enough to render the whole crew at least unconscious and possibly dead.

I thought of doing it by hit location -- ie, rolling on the critical hit location table and applying it to an area of effect from that point, but that would still be anyone within 20m of the hit location (I am assuming that if you multiply the rads by 5 for spacecraft weapons, then the area of effect is also multiplied by 5). A typical 200 ton ship is about 40m long, I think, so that is going to still be most crew. And if the party decides to opt for a called shot to the bridge...

But another question I had is wouldn't the radiation also affect the crew of the Harrier? The radiation trait specifies "anyone close to the firer...". Gramatically, that sentence excludes the firer but then logically it must include the firer as well unless there is some kind of safe zone immediately next to the radiating weapon. In the case of a personal weapon, such as the FGMP, the problem is solved in that it is designed to be used with battle dress, so the firer is protected, but for a starship weapon?

A bit confused by it all...

Dan.
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:04 am

I have simplified it to ignoring Radiation on shielded military ships, but that is obviously a house rule.

Regular civilian ships have the choice of surrendering or dying when confronting military WMDs like weapons with Radiation trait.
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby Reynard » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:42 am

Captain of a Harrier announces they are in range and they have a Particle Barbette. The target's sensors can confirm this. Now the target has a choice, stand down and be taken or they open fire. It's a weapon to prevent violence unless the target crew are suicidal or the Harrier crew are homicidal. Gloves are off when the target is a warship but even then a warship with lasers may ponder the outcome facing a radiation weapon.
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby baithammer » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:52 am

Against Destructive
weapons, every five meson screens will reduce damage
by 1DD and remove the Radiation trait.
And
Against Destructive
weapons, every five nuclear dampers will reduce damage
by 1DD and remove the Radiation trait.
So 5 of each screen and the radiation trait is removed.
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby ochd » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:04 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:04 am
Regular civilian ships have the choice of surrendering or dying when confronting military WMDs like weapons with Radiation trait.
Hmmm, if the players can get most civilian ships to drop their cargo without a contest, that sounds like too easy money. On the other hand, maybe that will lure them into a false sense of security and make for some interesting ship encounters.

Anyway, one other question - how long does radiation 'stick'? If the Harrier does use its particle weapon on a ship, would that ship then continue to be radioactive, so that anyone boarding it would take rad damage? If so, would the amount of rads be the same as the cumulative amount inflicted?

Dan.
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:36 pm

ochd wrote: Hmmm, if the players can get most civilian ships to drop their cargo without a contest, that sounds like too easy money. On the other hand, maybe that will lure them into a false sense of security and make for some interesting ship encounters.
Sure, but there are also Q-ships and stubborn s-o-bs who will shoot back on principle, even if it will kill them... Are the players ready to butcher an entire ship-full of people?

Why would an enterprising "privateer" settle for a few MCr worth of cargo when they could take a MCr 50 - 100 ship?

ochd wrote: Anyway, one other question - how long does radiation 'stick'? If the Harrier does use its particle weapon on a ship, would that ship then continue to be radioactive, so that anyone boarding it would take rad damage? If so, would the amount of rads be the same as the cumulative amount inflicted?
The radiation isn't permanent. Some would become permanent, but much less than the original hit.

But after a few hundred particle, fusion, or nuke hits...
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Re: Radiation Trait?

Postby PsiTraveller » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:06 pm

The willingness to slaughter, or enslave a shipload of people is the first moral question the Drinax campaign will have to deal with. What happpens if their target fights back. WIll the players keep zapping with the particle barbette? Once they capture a ship, do they send the captives out the airlock? or sell them to Theev? Even taking the cargo and letting the ship go could result in the financial disaster for the ship.

The Drinax campaign is not for the faint of heart when you think about it. Piracy is a messy business. Radiation hits are the least of the issues for the players.

The Ihate adventure could have them setting off nukes to kill 5000 Ihatei, with the blessings of the King.

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