Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:20 pm

Nerhesi wrote:
AnotherDilbert wrote:And as a side note, with only lasers available as armament energy fighters are no longer able to damage warships.
I think you meant sub-35 ton fighters right? Because fighters that are 35 tons and over can carry firmpoint barbettes, which means they can have 4D and 5D barbettes :)
Yes, of course. But then you have no PD and lose automatically to missile heavy opponents. Hm, I can make a module with the barbette or some PD turrets... OK, I'm overreacting.
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:26 pm

Nerhesi wrote:First: "USE THIS CHAPTER ONLY WITH REFEREE APPROVAL"
That would do nicely.

I guess if orders from HQ says "No Particle turrets or Meson bays" then we just have to go with the flow...
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby Nerhesi » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:00 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Nerhesi wrote:First: "USE THIS CHAPTER ONLY WITH REFEREE APPROVAL"
That would do nicely.

I guess if orders from HQ says "No Particle turrets or Meson bays" then we just have to go with the flow...
That is the exact way it happened - from above Matt actually. "Mesons are spinals only and Particles/plasmas/fusions are barbettes and above only.." - paraphrasing of course.
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AndrewW » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:56 pm

Nerhesi wrote:That is the exact way it happened - from above Matt actually. "Mesons are spinals only and Particles/plasmas/fusions are barbettes and above only.." - paraphrasing of course.
Pretty much. That chapter is for none Third Imperium tech.
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:51 am

Since we discussed barbette fighters:
Modular Medium Fighter with 7t module, MCr 93 without module (carrier adds MCr ~100).
M-Drive 9, Reaction drive 16 with 7 rounds of fuel (if we borrow 0.6 dT power plant fuel).
Basic module contains a long range fusion barbette and 2t barracks. I guess that buys me a bunkbed and a head at least. Range extended from a few hours to a few days?
Armour 15, Hull 19

Code: Select all

TL 15                        HullP            93,025  
                              19,2        
                      Desired  Rat  #  dTonn  Cost  Power
Hull                                    40,0           8
Config CloseStructure      4    4              3,8  
HullStrength Reinforced    3    3        
Armour BondedSuperdense   15   15        4,8   4,5  
Rad Shielding              1    1              1,0  
              
ManœuvreD HiTech,2*EneEf   9    9   1    3,6  10,8    18
PowerP                              1    2,1   4,1    41

Fuel, Power                4   20   1    1,0    
              
ReactionD HiTech,3*FuelEf 16   16   1   12,8   3,8  
Reaction Fuel  7,0 turns   1    1        7,2    
              
Cockpit                    1    1        1,5   0,0  
    Holographic            1    1              0,0  
Comp  CORE/50             10   50   1         60,0  
Evade/3          BW:25                         3,0  
Point Defence/2  BW:15            
FireControl/5    BW:25            
VirtualCrew/0    BW: 5                         1,0
AstroMech Droid                                1,0
              
Sensors  Basic                      1      

Module                                   7,0    
Crew
Pilot/Commander
Optionally 2 Gunners
Optionally 2 Sensor Operators
AstroMech Droid
VirtualCrew software to cover crew napping or self-parking. The craft will come and find you when you whistle.


Power for craft systems and 15 for modules.


Modules include:
Combat: Fusion Barbette (HighTech, LongRange, HiYield), 2t Barracks, Fire Control/5, Power 15, MCr 16
ECM: 2 PD single pulse laser turret (VAdv, Accurate), CM Suite, EnhancedSP, 2 Sensor Station, Point Defence/2, Power 11, MCr 28
Recon: 2 PD single pulse laser turret (VAdv, Accurate), MilSensor, EnhancedSP, 2 Sensor Station, Point Defence/2, Power 12, MCr 28
Marine: 16 seats in acceleration benches, Breaching Tube. MCr 3.


Compared to my previous 70t turreted designs, it does more damage, but has less Hullpoints and worse PD per MCr.
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby Nerhesi » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:46 am

Nice - 40ton is my preferred range for a superiority fighter.

Interesting how expensive the software and computer is.
I'd just watch out for that endurance. Expect 2 rounds at minimum closing.. perhaps 3,4 or even 5 if the enemy decides to just kite to the best of their ability (9G or so). Regardless that is a minor change even if you just have to drop the stateroom for a cockpit or so.
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby wbnc » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:51 am

I like the design. I am glad you are nailing down the high tech end of the spectrum. I tend to work at the low end....interesting to see how you mix and match to get a fairly lethal combination.
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:13 am

Nerhesi wrote:Nice - 40ton is my preferred range for a superiority fighter.

Interesting how expensive the software and computer is.
I'd just watch out for that endurance. Expect 2 rounds at minimum closing.. perhaps 3,4 or even 5 if the enemy decides to just kite to the best of their ability (9G or so). Regardless that is a minor change even if you just have to drop the stateroom for a cockpit or so.
I could not make it 35 dT, I had to go to 40 dT.
The computer is probably excessive, but the first MCr 100 is for the carrier, so a cheap carrier fighter can't exist.
The reaction fuel is the bare minimum. I expect the enemy to run away, the closing in will take 7 rounds. I also expect the combat to end quickly, that same 7th round...
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:20 am

wbnc wrote:I like the design. I am glad you are nailing down the high tech end of the spectrum. I tend to work at the low end....interesting to see how you mix and match to get a fairly lethal combination.
I'm thinking of something like the Island Cluster campaign in old TCS, a lot of small states. Some of them will design their fleets around missiles, others will ignore missiles. I have to be able to fight both.
I also don't want the enemy to know what systems I'm using today. At Distant or Very Long range he will see the fighters, but not the modules, e.g. He will not know if I charge him with barbettes or marines. That means he cannot chose to target e.g.my ECM equipped fighters first, he has to target a random fighter.
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:16 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:so a cheap carrier fighter can't exist.
Challenge accepted.

Cheap Modular Medium Fighter with 7t module, MCr 34 without module (carrier adds MCr ~100).
M-Drive 9, Reaction drive 16 with 7 rounds of fuel (if we borrow 0.6 dT power plant fuel).
Basic module contains a long range fusion barbette and 2t barracks. I guess that buys me a bunkbed and a head at least. Range extended from a few hours to a few days?
Armour 15, Hull 19

Code: Select all

TL 15                        HullP            34,025  
                              19,2        
                      Desired  Rat  #  dTonn  Cost  Power
Hull                                    40,0           8
Config CloseStructure      4    4              3,8  
HullStrength Reinforced    3    3        
Armour BondedSuperdense   15   15        4,8   4,5  
Rad Shielding              1    1              1,0  
              
ManœuvreD HiTech,2*EneEf   9    9   1    3,6  10,8    18
PowerP                              1    2,1   4,1    41
Fuel, Power                4   20   1    1,0    
              
ReactionD HiTech,3*FuelEf 16   16   1   12,8   3,8  
Reaction Fuel  7,0 turns   1    1        7,2    
              
Cockpit                    1    1        1,5   0,0  
    Holographic            1    1              0,0  
Comp  m/15                 2   15   1          2,0  
Evade/2          BW:15                         2,0  
Point Defence/2  BW:15            
FireControl/3    BW:15            
VirtualCrew/0    BW: 5                         1,0
AstroMech Droid                                1,0
              
Sensors  Basic                      1      

Module                                   7,0   
Crew
Pilot/Commander
Optionally 1 or 2 Gunners
Optionally 2 Sensor Operators
AstroMech Droid
VirtualCrew software to cover crew napping or self-parking. The craft will come and find you when you whistle.


Power for craft systems and 15 for modules.


Modules include:
Combat: Fusion Barbette (HighTech, LongRange, HiYield), 2t Barracks, Fire Control/3, Power 15, MCr 12
ECM: 2 PD single pulse laser turret (VAdv, Accurate), CM Suite, EnhancedSP, 2 Sensor Station, Point Defence/2, Power 11, MCr 28
Recon: 2 PD single pulse laser turret (VAdv, Accurate), MilSensor, EnhancedSP, 2 Sensor Station, Point Defence/2, Power 12, MCr 28
PD: 2 PD single pulse laser turret (VAdv, Accurate), 5 dT fuel, Point Defence/2, Power 8, MCr 15
Marine: 16 seats in acceleration benches, Breaching Tube. MCr 3.

Edit: Added PD module, it's cheaper than ECM module.
Last edited by AnotherDilbert on Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:27 am

Comments: Can't cheat on expensive PD software. without it you have NO massed PD. But the cheaper version has better PD because of more hulls => more PD mounts.

Total cost for expensive version: Carrier MCr100, Fighter MCr93, Weapon MCr16, 2/3 ECM or Recon MCr19 = MCr 228
Total cost for cheap version: Carrier MCr100, Fighter MCr34, Weapon MCr12, 2/3 ECM or Recon MCr19 = MCr 165

So I get 228/165 ≈ 1.4 cheap fighters for each expensive fighter.
The attrition cost is much lower, but I need (and will lose) more highly trained people.
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:05 am

Fight:
10 expensive vs 14 cheap: The cheap win the dogfight. Plenty of dodges for everyone. Expensive runs FC/5 and Ev/3. Cheap runs FC/3. Expensive to hit +5+5-2-5=0, hit 5+; Produces 8.3 hits à roughly 7.5 damage = 62 damage. Cheap to hit +5+3+2-3-5=+2, hit 6+; produces 10,1 hits à 7 damage = 70 damage. expensive craft makes less damage, but the cheaper have 40% more hull. Cheaper wins!

vs ship: The ship can't dodge enough. Both fighters will win dogfight vs the ship. Expensive hit +5+5+2-3=+9, hit on a roll of -1. Cheap to hit +5+0+2-3=+4, hit 4+. Both will hit but the expensive will do more damage because higher effect. Base dam 5*3,67-15=3.35. Expensive adds average effect 7+9-8=8. Cheap adds average effect 7+4-8=3. Expensive does ~11.35, cheap does ~6.35. Expensive is better, but both will win.

vs drone: 1 fighter vs lots of drones. Drones wins dogfight. Any damage will kill a drone, just compare hits. Expensive to hit +5+5-2=+8, autohit. Cheap to hit +5+0-2=+3, hit 5+. Cheaper makes 17% more hits and has 40% more hull. Easy win for cheap over expensive.

Expensive vs missile cruiser: Random 40 kT missile cruiser with 70 med miss bays costs GCr50 with missiles, 20000 Hull. For that I get 219 expensive. The fighter will run all the ECM and Sensor modules they have, 2/3 of the fighters have PD, 1/3 have barbettes. Barbette fighters run fire contro/5, PD fighters run PD software, all also run Evade/3. Fighters will win dogfight. Fighter barbette to hit +5+5+2-3=+9, hit on roll of -1, average effect 7+9-8=8, average damage 3.35+8=11.35. 73 barbette fighters do ~828 damage. Average PD 7+5+0-8=4 missiles killed. 146 PD fighters kill 146*2*4=~1168 missiles per attack step. Ship launches 70*24=1680 missiles - 1168 killed = 512 possible. Nuc missiles do 6D-15 = ~6 damage, 4 missiles kills a fighter. Ship to hit: +1[smart] +3[software] -3[evade] -5[dodge] -2[dogfight] -6[ship in dogfight] = -16 missiles miss per salvo. Salvo needed to kill fighter average 4+16 = 20, say 25 missiles to almost certainly kill. 512/25 ≈ 20 fighters killed every round. All Fighters die in 11 rounds, nearly all missiles consumed. Fighters do ~5000 Hull. Horrible loss for expensive fighters

Cheap vs missile cruiser: Random 40 kT missile cruiser with 70 med miss bays costs GCr50 with missiles, 20000 Hull. For that I get 303 cheap. The fighter will run all the ECM and Sensor modules they have, 2/3 of the fighters have PD, 1/3 have barbettes. Barbette fighters run fire control/3, PD fighters run PD software. Fighters will win dogfight. Fighter barbette to hit +5+3+2-3=+7, hit 1+, average effect 7+7-8=6, average damage 3.35+6=9.35. 101 barbette fighters do ~944 damage. Average PD 7+5+0-8=4 missiles killed. 202 PD fighters kill 202*2*4=~1616 missiles per attack step. Ship launches 70*24=1680 missiles - 1616 killed = 64 possible. Nuc missiles do 6D-15 = ~6 damage, 4 missiles kills a fighter. Ship to hit: +1[smart] +3[software] -5[dodge] -2[dogfight] -6[ship in dogfight] = -13 missiles miss per salvo. Salvo needed to kill fighter average 4+13 = 17, say 20 missiles to almost certainly kill. 64/20 ≈ 3 fighters killed every round. 36 Fighters die in 12 rounds, all missiles consumed. Fighters kill ship in ~30 attack steps. Glorious win for cheap fighters


Conclusion: Cheaper fighters are better!

Edit: cheaper only has Evade/2, updated fighter vs fighter fight... Cheaper uses FC/3 instead of Ev/2, bloodbath ensues.
Last edited by AnotherDilbert on Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby Chas » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:37 pm

A bunch of things I need to catch up with. I figured a swarm of low tonnage cheap fighters with as high a firepower as possible are the preferred route despite the attrition and good to see it play out. Not that I've actually examined your details properly AnotherDilbert. I'll look for Nehersi's input here also.

Could see why drone fighters might be preferred with pilot burn. Not sure how well these will work out though.

I think we're all in agreement the 40ton fighter is a pretty standard sweet spot? That's where I ended up with my build anyway. I also struggled to make stuff smaller stick, though I want to return to this.

Talking about finding faults in one's builds :? , with 30 plus spreadsheets in complete disarray after 4 different iterations it'll be nice to try and get this stuff pinned down. There are a bunch of cost issues with my torp builds also as I'm now finding actually redoing a design from the ground up, ho ho.

I'll be very interested to see what you make of what I'm about to put up shortly :D
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:04 pm

Unfortunately the Chancellor heard of the Admiralty's newfound enthusiasm for less expensive fighters and ordered the Exchequer to perform a budget review and cut the fat out of the project. In due course a few wet-behind-the-ears PPEs descended on the naval architecture bureau and removed components that they didn't understand muttering about "over-engineered" and "gold-plated toilet seats". After a night's heroic drinking, initiated by a few worried junior naval officers, the budget committee misspelled some numbers (the last 0.5 dT hull is only there to get another Hullpoint). The defence lobbyists vehemently protested the lack of gold-plated anything, until it was finally decided to order more fighters, to insure the usual cost overruns.

Cheaper Modular Medium Fighter with 5t module, MCr 30 without module (carrier adds MCr ~88).
M-Drive 9, Reaction drive 16 with 8 rounds of fuel (if we borrow 0.7 dT power plant fuel).
Basic module contains a long range fusion barbette.
Armour 15, Hull 17

Code: Select all

TL 15                         HullP           30,1805  
                              17,04        
                      Desired  Rat  #  dTonn  Cost  Power
Hull                                    35,5           7
Config CloseStructure      4    4              3,4  
HullStrength Reinforced    3    3        
Armour BondedSuperdense   15   15        4,3   4,1  
Rad Shielding              1    1              0,9  
              
ManœuvreD HiTech,2*EneEf   9    9   1    3,2   9,6    16
PowerP                              1    1,9   3,8    38
Fuel, Power                4   21   1    1,0    
              
ReactionD HiTech,3*FuelEf 16   16   1   11,4   3,4  
Reaction Fuel  8,0 turns   1    1        7,3    
              
Cockpit                    1    1        1,5   0,0  
    Holographic            1    1              0,0  
Comp  m/15                 3   15   1          2,0  
Evade/2          BW:15                         2,0  
Point Defence/2  BW:15            
FireControl/3    BW:15            
AstroMech Droid                                1,0  
              
Sensors  Basic                      1      

Module                                   5,0    
Crew
Pilot/Commander
Optionally 1 or 2 Gunners
Optionally 2 Sensor Operators
AstroMech Droid can perform repairs and park the craft. The craft might even come when you whistle.


Power for craft systems and 15 for modules.


Modules include:
Combat: Fusion Barbette (HighTech, LongRange, HiYield), Fire Control/3, Power 15, MCr 12
Missile Pod: Missile Barbette (HighTech,3*SizeRed), 25 missiles, Launch Control/3, Power 0, MCr 33 w missiles
Missile Pack: Missile Barbette (HighTech,3*SizeRed), 25 missiles, Power 0, MCr 17 w missiles
PD: 2 PD single pulse laser turret (VAdv, Accurate), 3 dT fuel, Point Defence/2, Power 8, MCr 15
ECM: CM Suite, EnhancedSP, 2 Sensor Station, Power 3, MCr 13
Recon: MilSensor, EnhancedSP, 2 Sensor Station, Power 12, MCr 13
Assault: 8 seats in acceleration benches, Breaching Tube. MCr 3.


The basic procurement plan includes: Fighter MCr 30, Carrier MCr 88, Combat MCr 12, 2/3 PD MCr 10, 1/6 ECM or Recon MCr 2 = MCr 142 per fighter.
Last edited by AnotherDilbert on Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:32 pm

Chas wrote:Could see why drone fighters might be preferred with pilot burn. Not sure how well these will work out though.
I'm not overfond of these ridiculous sub 2 dT drones I made. They were an experiment. The lack of skill in the drones necessitates making them very cheap, so we can have very many of them. I'll trust Search&Rescue to pick up most of the destroyed fighters' crew.
Chas wrote:I think we're all in agreement the 40ton fighter is a pretty standard sweet spot? That's where I ended up with my build anyway. I also struggled to make stuff smaller stick, though I want to return to this.
A carrier fighter needs to be as small as possible (35 dT), a planet-based fighter is much less sensitive. Note that in my last build above the carrier cost 3 times as much as the fighter airframe.


I think I've learned a few things the last few days:
Cheap is good. (As always)
Big Guns: If you can't rely on the computer to generate high gunnery effect, you weapon must penetrate armour on it's own. Only barbettes can do that.
Don't mix roles: Don't mix Guns, Missiles, and PD on the same hull, you don't have the computer to support it.
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby Chas » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:17 pm

The Corsair Missile Space Superiority Boat is a ship of indeterminate nomenclature. It could be called an ultra heavy fighter in some navies, or as often referred to, a pocket battle rider, as many of its predecessors of similar abilities were of significantly larger size.

The Corsair is a bleeding edge craft that at first was soundly rejected by the appropriations board in view of its price tag. It had taken careful coaxing to get an experimental version built and trialed where upon its true capabilities were finally perceived. As Admiral Crison remarked, its value lies in the fact it can perform a multitude of roles, as opposed to a vast lumbering carrier and its load of strike fighters which only has one battle field function and nothing outside that. The Corsair is a scout, intruder, patrol vessel, space superiority fighter, sniper and escort. It has the firepower and speed to destroy the smaller maximum thrust ships that might catch it, with its Parthian shot tactics of running away while firing missiles as it retreats. It carries all the equipment that smaller ships lack, able to protect itself from nuclear weapons and indulge in electronic warfare and long range detection while still maintaining a formidable sting. It is a patrolling scout ship able to take matters into its own hands depending on what it finds, or running away at need.

On such a vessel the navy is willing to expend its truly elite crew members, the pilot and sensor operator. And for critical missions its computer is easily upgraded to include additional software, despite the eye watering cost.

Image

Went to town on this wanting to see just where I could push a Thrust 16 build and have my cake. I couldn’t do it, the bridge tonnage really kicks in at these low 100s of dTons, unless you’re prepared to accept the -1 penalty on a small bridge you have to build bigger and lower thrust or start to really lose firepower vs. a straight M drive only ship. Here I backed off to the tightest smallest build I could. I’ve just managed to squeeze in the bells and whistles in a 200 ton hull such that it’s down a barbette to bay for relative firepower to a non very high thrust ship. It just gets worse after that.

Still I do like the final result regardless. I’m a big fan of drop tanks and have a whole slew of potential builds to go up using these once the rules get firmed up. And to heck with the cost of this SSB as I think the multi role function of the vessel does justify it, though I did pull my head in when it came to an electronics warfare package or tactics package, that pricing along with the computer cost for bandwidth to run it is brutal.

I’ll put this up and see how it flies. May have to give up a couple of wish list items there for ammo or more fuel.
To explain it is Thrust 10 from the reaction drive initially, getting better till it’s thrust 13 from the 50% fuel on board after the drop tanks are complete dropped after 5 turns.
200 ton hull. 225 tons with drop tanks to carry as a rider. It is M9 with the weight of the drop tanks included.

Edit: Meh. The damper should be MCr15. What's next ;)
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby wbnc » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:43 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Chas wrote:Could see why drone fighters might be preferred with pilot burn. Not sure how well these will work out though.
I'm not overfond of these ridiculous sub 2 dT drones I made. They were an experiment. The lack of skill in the drones necessitates making them very cheap, so we can have very many of them. I'll trust Search&Rescue to pick up most of the destroyed fighters' crew.
Chas wrote:I think we're all in agreement the 40ton fighter is a pretty standard sweet spot? That's where I ended up with my build anyway. I also struggled to make stuff smaller stick, though I want to return to this.
A carrier fighter needs to be as small as possible (35 dT), a planet-based fighter is much less sensitive. Note that in my last build above the carrier cost 3 times as much as the fighter airframe.


I think I've learned a few things the last few days:
Cheap is good. (As always)
Big Guns: If you can't rely on the computer to generate high gunnery effect, you weapon must penetrate armour on it's own. Only barbettes can do that.
Don't mix roles: Don't mix Guns, Missiles, and PD on the same hull, you don't have the computer to support it.
It does seem that computers, and software, costs are the limiting factor in fighter design. The most successful scheme I can come up with is mixing single role fighters, escort ( good PD) EW and strike, on the offensive side..

with a wall of light agile drones as your basic point defense/screening 'fighter'



so I'd imagine the organization looking like this

3 strike
1 escort
1 EW
1-2 superiority/battle space denial( "season to taste")

on the defensive side
1 Superiority/Battlespace Denial
2 Point defense
1 patrol/scouting

this spread could be applied at the strike package level, all the way up to the fighter wing level.
AnotherDilbert wrote:Unfortunately the Chancellor heard of the Admiralty's newfound enthusiasm for less expensive fighters and ordered the Exchequer to perform a budget review and cut the fat out of the project. In due course a few wet-behind-the-ears PPEs descended on the naval architecture bureau and removed components that they didn't understand muttering about "over-engineered" and "gold-plated toilet seats". After a night's heroic drinking, initiated by a few worried junior naval officers, the budget committee misspelled some numbers (the last 0.5 dT hull is only there to get another Hullpoint). The defence lobbyists vehemently protested the lack of gold-plated anything, until it was finally decided to order more fighters, to insure the usual cost overruns.
this is pretty much how I see EVERY ship, or fighter development program running.

It's also why I could see the birth of the "Drone Mafia"...The logic would be."no pilots, no staterooms for pilots, no food and recreation facilities for pilots," But the battlecry would be " no letters to the families of dead pilots!"


What do you guys think of the Idea of Capital fighters...100-200 ton super heavies. ( Edit: well seems someone already had that idea :D)
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby Chas » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:47 pm

My previous post by drones I actually meant the automated full fighters similar to what I put up for the torpedo bombers. While the software is not cheap highly skilled manpower is not a casual cash burn in attritional battles. How do the fully automated fighters work out combat-wise vs. the fleshies?
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby wbnc » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:57 pm

Chas wrote:The Corsair Missile Space Superiority Boat is a ship of indeterminate nomenclature. It could be called an ultra heavy fighter in some navies, or as often referred to, a pocket battle rider, as many of its predecessors of similar abilities were of significantly larger size.

The Corsair is a bleeding edge craft that at first was soundly rejected by the appropriations board in view of its price tag. It had taken careful coaxing to get an experimental version built and trialed where upon its true capabilities were finally perceived. As Admiral Crison remarked, its value lies in the fact it can perform a multitude of roles, as opposed to a vast lumbering carrier and its load of strike fighters which only has one battle field function and nothing outside that. The Corsair is a scout, intruder, patrol vessel, space superiority fighter, sniper and escort. It has the firepower and speed to destroy the smaller maximum thrust ships that might catch it, with its Parthian shot tactics of running away while firing missiles as it retreats. It carries all the equipment that smaller ships lack, able to protect itself from nuclear weapons and indulge in electronic warfare and long range detection while still maintaining a formidable sting. It is a patrolling scout ship able to take matters into its own hands depending on what it finds, or running away at need.

On such a vessel the navy is willing to expend its truly elite crew members, the pilot and sensor operator. And for critical missions its computer is easily upgraded to include additional software, despite the eye watering cost.

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Went to town on this wanting to see just where I could push a Thrust 16 build and have my cake. I couldn’t do it, the bridge tonnage really kicks in at these low 100s of dTons, unless you’re prepared to accept the -1 penalty on a small bridge you have to build bigger and lower thrust or start to really lose firepower vs. a straight M drive only ship. Here I backed off to the tightest smallest build I could. I’ve just managed to squeeze in the bells and whistles in a 200 ton hull such that it’s down a barbette to bay for relative firepower to a non very high thrust ship. It just gets worse after that.

Still I do like the final result regardless. I’m a big fan of drop tanks and have a whole slew of potential builds to go up using these once the rules get firmed up. And to heck with the cost of this SSB as I think the multi role function of the vessel does justify it, though I did pull my head in when it came to an electronics warfare package or tactics package, that pricing along with the computer cost for bandwidth to run it is brutal.

I’ll put this up and see how it flies. May have to give up a couple of wish list items there for ammo or more fuel.
To explain it is Thrust 10 from the reaction drive initially, getting better till it’s thrust 13 from the 50% fuel on board after the drop tanks are complete dropped after 5 turns.
200 ton hull. 225 tons with drop tanks to carry as a rider. It is M9 with the weight of the drop tanks included.

Edit: Meh. The damper should be MCr15. What's next ;)

I'll see your Corsair and raise you a Hellcat:)
two to one numerical superiority.
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In all honesty yours makes a better multi-role multi mission version. With Both strike, and fighter suppression capability, and much better endurance. Actually I think the two of them acting in concert would be a pretty nasty package. The Corsair has the ability to choose it's engagement range, and maintain stand off distance. While the Hellcat has to nurse it's reaction mass a bit more judiciously.

recommendation:
1 corsair
2 Hellcats

Hellcats can cross fire to provide additional PD, Leaving the Corsair free to unleash hell.....while the Hellcats use their heavy guns on stubborn stains. "Oh how cute they beat his lock on, and shot down his missiles........ BLAMMMM!, PD that!"
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:38 am

Ooh, getting a bay into space for MCr ~150 is fearsome indeed.

Yet the size is a bit awkward. You are big enough to be vulnerable to fighters, and too small to share the cost of a decent computer over several mounts.

Even a half-decent reaction drive can deny at least my fuel starved fighters any chance of closing in, as Nerhesi has softly pointed out a few times.

Drop Tanks are a great fit for reaction drives.

In squadron combat the Corsair and missile fighters can bypass any PD simply by firing more salvoes than you have PD mounts. The missile bay in the Corsair launches 12 missiles, three cheap missile barbette fighters would launch more missiles. Fighters might counter with dodge.

The fusion bay seems like a good weapon for stand-off killing fighters.

Presuming hits, the Hellcat will kill the Corsair in 5 rounds, the Corsair will kill the Hellcat in 2 rounds (without the PD turret it would be 1 round).

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