Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Chas
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Re: Fighters.Fighters.Fighters.

Postby Chas » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:57 am

wbnc wrote:I like he way you have them built.

Only a few thing I'd suggest.

Creating non stealth/Emissions Absorption versions for use when engaging in a stand up fight.a mixed wing of stealth, and normal models would allow a bit of a savings to placate the bean counters..and give a force commander a group of fighter that can maneuver at log range and hopefully get lost in the shuffle, or Maneuvering and firing at standoff distances if possible.

and maybe adding an basic ECM pack if you can wedge it in on the heavier designs. Being able to ECM kill incoming missiles might be more cost effective than hoping the other guy cant get a lock on.

Also,I think in a major fleet engagement they are going to be pretty quick to spot a sizable force of torpedo bombers lurking on the perimeter for an opening. ( this might be a personal taste item on my part, I'm just not a fan of stealth as a standard option on most craft.)

if the rules allow for it, another option would be fighters with PD weapons in close escort, firing on missiles/enemy fighters as they get within range.
I have a counter measures suite for the heavy torpedo bomber.

The point with stealth and the EAG is lock on. The one thing fighters need to be very afraid of is missiles and the locked on missile is something to avoid. I'd like to actually play test these because I've not worked through the general % advantage or disadvantage of some of stealth and EAG in combat.
Chas
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Re: Fighters.Fighters.Fighters.

Postby Chas » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:04 am

wbnc wrote: 50 ton Patrol Fighter. Built at TL 12 to be easily manufactured by less advanced starports. Intended to be deployed to systems where it will loiter with several other fighters to patrol fuel sources, and remain near the jump limit of settled worlds to rapidly respond to hostile actions, and support other small craft during inspections, and security operations. It mount High Burn Thrusters to allow it to transit a system rather quickly and respond to calls for assistance with minimal delay.

It has a small stateroom built in to allow crewmen to remain on station for days or weeks/ The pilot, and copilot taking turns on watch.The copilot takes over turret weapons, and operates sensors during combat, allowing for him to use EW/PD fire to defeat missiles, and lock on while the pilot concentrates on flight and using the main gun.
I note the very high fuel tonnage available for the build reaction drive. With the uniform fuels now the ship could fly the length of a solar system at need on M6 drive, heh.

There'd be a sensor packed version of this to patrol out from a fleet and back...

(you've still got long range for your plasma which you can't get now)
wbnc
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Re: Fighters.Fighters.Fighters.

Postby wbnc » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:10 am

Chas wrote:
wbnc wrote: 50 ton Patrol Fighter. Built at TL 12 to be easily manufactured by less advanced starports. Intended to be deployed to systems where it will loiter with several other fighters to patrol fuel sources, and remain near the jump limit of settled worlds to rapidly respond to hostile actions, and support other small craft during inspections, and security operations. It mount High Burn Thrusters to allow it to transit a system rather quickly and respond to calls for assistance with minimal delay.

It has a small stateroom built in to allow crewmen to remain on station for days or weeks/ The pilot, and copilot taking turns on watch.The copilot takes over turret weapons, and operates sensors during combat, allowing for him to use EW/PD fire to defeat missiles, and lock on while the pilot concentrates on flight and using the main gun.
I note the very high fuel tonnage available for the build reaction drive. With the uniform fuels now the ship could fly the length of a solar system at need on M6 drive, heh.

There'd be a sensor packed version of this to patrol out from a fleet and back...

(you've still got long range for your plasma which you can't get now)
Good suggestion on the sensor version

I kept the long range advantage since it increase the base range of the weapon to long range...which allows it to fire at Close range instead adjacent range.
Chas
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby Chas » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:52 am

wbnc - regards the fusion/plasma gun. Is this a High Tech option or the barbette scaled down? I assume the High Tech chapter option...

Edit: I think you want to be at 49 tons for the dog fight rules right?
Last edited by Chas on Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
wbnc
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby wbnc » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:54 am

Chas wrote:wbnc - regards the fusion/plasma gun. Is this a High Tech option or the barbette scaled down? I assume the High Tech chapter option...

High tech optional weapon.

For canon use I'd probably give it a Particle beam.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:30 am

wbnc wrote:50 ton Patrol Fighter.
Disturbingly cheap, they should defeat my MCr 100 designs with ease.

Close Configuration would give you a few more Hullpoints, at very little extra cost. It could mean surviving another hit...

Your Armour calculations seems a bit off, I get 7.5 dT and MCr 1.5.

Radiation Shielding is highly recommended, without it Radiation weapons are rather lethal to the crew.

Manoeuvre Drive is much cheaper than Reaction Drives (in tonnage). You could have a 7 G Manoeuvre Drive at TL12.

The 1 dT of power plant fuel only gives an endurance of 4 weeks, I've tried to reason around that but the rules are clear and harsh.

The Plasma Gun is a TL11 component, at TL12 you can only tech upgrade it with 1 advantage. Long Range requires 2 advantages. I made the same mistake with Fusion Guns at TL 15... The trusty Particle Beam is our friend. The Plasma Gun is only MCr 2.5.
AndrewW
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AndrewW » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:35 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:The 1 dT of power plant fuel only gives an endurance of 4 weeks, I've tried to reason around that but the rules are clear and harsh.
Used to be 2 weeks.
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:10 am

The Anti-Fighter Drone
Very small and cheap, but with the acceleration and endurance to keep up with major warships.
Will hit enemy fighters occasionally, at least if they don't evade. Can be remote controlled for improved skill.
Intended to be kept in Docking Spaces on major warships in large numbers, to be released when threatened with Close Combat.

MCr 5 and 1.8 dT, so fits in a 2 dT Docking Space.
9G, Armour 15

Code: Select all

TL 15                          Hull            5,04  
                               0,72        
                       Desired  Rat  #  dTonn  Cost  Power
Hull                                     1,8           0
Config Standard             1    1             0,090  
Armour BondedSuperdense    15   15       0,2   0,108  
Reflec                      1    1             0,180  
              
ManœuvreD HiTech,3*EneEff   9    9  1    0,2   0,405   0
PowerP                              1    0,4   0,717   7
Fuel, Power                 4  119  1    1,0    
              
Comp  m/10                  2   10  1          0,160  
    /fib                    1    1             0,080  
Software: Virtual Crew/0                       1,000  

Sensors  Basic                      1      

Fixed Mount              
Fusion,Advanced EneEff      1 TL15  1          2,300   6
Chas
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby Chas » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:21 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
wbnc wrote:50 ton Patrol Fighter.
Disturbingly cheap, they should defeat my MCr 100 designs with ease.

Close Configuration would give you a few more Hullpoints, at very little extra cost. It could mean surviving another hit...
This is what I've found to be generic through the system and why I was whinging about the high cost of tech upgrades. The cost structures can find making a bunch of significantly lower tech ships more combat effective than the higher tech ones.
Chas
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby Chas » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:30 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:The Anti-Fighter Drone
Very small and cheap, but with the acceleration and endurance to keep up with major warships.
Will hit enemy fighters occasionally, at least if they don't evade. Can be remote controlled for improved skill.
Intended to be kept in Docking Spaces on major warships in large numbers, to be released when threatened with Close Combat.
I'd like to see how this fights out. It's a good concept, you can have a cloud of these around your battleship protecting against main fighter attacks. It would work well with docking clamps. You only need 1 ton for those and the drones have the endurance that you can just take a low maneuver turn once completed your jump, dump the drones, and then cruise onwards.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:57 am

Chas wrote:
AnotherDilbert wrote:
wbnc wrote:50 ton Patrol Fighter.
Disturbingly cheap, they should defeat my MCr 100 designs with ease.
This is what I've found to be generic through the system and why I was whinging about the high cost of tech upgrades. The cost structures can find making a bunch of significantly lower tech ships more combat effective than the higher tech ones.
i quite agree. The problem for cheap fighters is the cost of the carrier, if you want to attack the enemy. For system defence cheap fighters in large numbers are most likely superior.

The thing about the tech upgrades is that even if the component is more expensive, the ship carrying it might be cheaper. E.g. we want 10 med missile bays = 1000 dT. We build a 5000 dT destroyer to carry them to battle. If we tech upgrade the bays with Reduced Size we might need 800 dT instead, and they can fit into a 4000 dT destroyer. The 4000 dT destroyer will be cheaper with the same firepower.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:00 pm

Chas wrote:
AnotherDilbert wrote:The Anti-Fighter Drone
Very small and cheap, but with the acceleration and endurance to keep up with major warships.
Will hit enemy fighters occasionally, at least if they don't evade. Can be remote controlled for improved skill.
Intended to be kept in Docking Spaces on major warships in large numbers, to be released when threatened with Close Combat.
I'd like to see how this fights out. It's a good concept, you can have a cloud of these around your battleship protecting against main fighter attacks. It would work well with docking clamps. You only need 1 ton for those and the drones have the endurance that you can just take a low maneuver turn once completed your jump, dump the drones, and then cruise onwards.
I'll see what I can do, but there are a lot of moving part in this scenario, a (squadron of?) battleship(s), the drones, enemy fighters, their carrier...
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:05 pm

Chas wrote:It would work well with docking clamps. You only need 1 ton for those and the drones have the endurance that you can just take a low maneuver turn once completed your jump, dump the drones, and then cruise onwards.
That would only save me a little hull. The drives (at least jump) have to be dimensioned for the docking clamp + the drone (~3 dT), instead of the drone in docking space (~2dT).
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:31 pm

Chas wrote:I'd like to see how this fights out. It's a good concept, you can have a cloud of these around your battleship protecting against main fighter attacks.
Preliminary fight with drones against fighter. I can get around 30 drones for the price of a single space superiority fighter with software.

Assumptions: The drones will win dogfight, because of superior numbers, and choose Adjacent range. The drones will hit on 9+ (28%) and do an estimated average damage of 1 (4D ≈ 14 + low effect). The fighter is using 3 particle, it will auto hit and have an estimated 50% chance of doing damage (3D ≈ 10.5 + high effect). The fighter has, say, 15 G left to dodge with, 15 drone attacks will miss. The drones can dodge as much as they want, but with Pilot-0 there is no effect.

Resolution: After 10 rounds the fighter have killed 15 drones and is now immune. The fighter has lost 23 Hullpoints, 10 left. It will have taken 6 crits from %-damage. An early Armour crit could be devastating. A couple of Hull crits could kill and would cause further crits. Given the random crits I would call this almost even.

All is dependant on dodges, with 25 dodges the fighter wins easily, with few dodges it is crushed.

The fighter would do much better with Fusion Guns but it would be defenceless at Close range. If the enemy ship is a missile boat, the fighter would have to carry PD lasers and do a lot less damage.

If we remote control the drones with reasonable skill (~3) the drones would win easily.
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby phavoc » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:39 pm

Everyone knows toaster-piloted fighters don't stand a chance against plucky, cigar-chomping human pilots.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:45 pm

Yes, quite, I forgot to account for the frakking cigar.
Chas
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby Chas » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:50 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Chas wrote:I'd like to see how this fights out. It's a good concept, you can have a cloud of these around your battleship protecting against main fighter attacks.
Preliminary fight with drones against fighter. I can get around 30 drones for the price of a single space superiority fighter with software.

Assumptions: The drones will win dogfight, because of superior numbers, and choose Adjacent range. The drones will hit on 9+ (28%) and do an estimated average damage of 1 (4D ≈ 14 + low effect). The fighter is using 3 particle, it will auto hit and have an estimated 50% chance of doing damage (3D ≈ 10.5 + high effect). The fighter has, say, 15 G left to dodge with, 15 drone attacks will miss. The drones can dodge as much as they want, but with Pilot-0 there is no effect.

Resolution: After 10 rounds the fighter have killed 15 drones and is now immune. The fighter has lost 23 Hullpoints, 10 left. It will have taken 6 crits from %-damage. An early Armour crit could be devastating. A couple of Hull crits could kill and would cause further crits. Given the random crits I would call this almost even.

All is dependant on dodges, with 25 dodges the fighter wins easily, with few dodges it is crushed.

The fighter would do much better with Fusion Guns but it would be defenceless at Close range. If the enemy ship is a missile boat, the fighter would have to carry PD lasers and do a lot less damage.

If we remote control the drones with reasonable skill (~3) the drones would win easily.
Are there any small weapons that fighters could mount that might deal worthwhile damage to the pests? Need to go check the vehicle weapons...

(the missile ship would be out of range of the drones shirely?)
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:54 pm

Chas wrote:Are there any small weapons that fighters could mount that might deal worthwhile damage to the pests? Need to go check the vehicle weapons...
Anything that penetrates Armour 15 is big and expensive, so no.
Chas wrote:(the missile ship would be out of range of the drones shirely?)
I was assuming the drones protected the missile boat by staying close. The missile boat + drones would slaughter the fighters, but the missile boat would have to give up a lot of missile bays to house the drones...
Last edited by AnotherDilbert on Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chas
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby Chas » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:58 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Chas wrote:
AnotherDilbert wrote:Disturbingly cheap, they should defeat my MCr 100 designs with ease.
This is what I've found to be generic through the system and why I was whinging about the high cost of tech upgrades. The cost structures can find making a bunch of significantly lower tech ships more combat effective than the higher tech ones.
i quite agree. The problem for cheap fighters is the cost of the carrier, if you want to attack the enemy. For system defence cheap fighters in large numbers are most likely superior.

The thing about the tech upgrades is that even if the component is more expensive, the ship carrying it might be cheaper. E.g. we want 10 med missile bays = 1000 dT. We build a 5000 dT destroyer to carry them to battle. If we tech upgrade the bays with Reduced Size we might need 800 dT instead, and they can fit into a 4000 dT destroyer. The 4000 dT destroyer will be cheaper with the same firepower.
Yeah. This is where we got to with the battle rider discussion. And is also where the purely Credit to Credit comparison starts to break down. Yes, you can build a carrier that's little more than a floating hulk: Maneuver 4 (still need power for jump), no armor, no weapons, no this, no that, and you can bring an awful lot of firepower to a battle. Including missiles turrets or not for a 100,000 ton carrier does wonders for potential figuring out of costs, but is it realistic when a carrier's biggest threat might be a long range high thrust build where a handful of missiles could mean the difference between survival and death by that torpedo pursuit fighter I put up. And how realistic is it not having M9 for the carrier when the rest of the fleet is M9... and so forth.
Last edited by Chas on Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chas
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Re: Fighters!Fighters!Fighters!

Postby Chas » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:04 pm

Chas wrote:(the missile ship would be out of range of the drones shirely?)
I was assuming the drones protected the missile boat by staying close. The missile boat + drones would slaughter the fighters, but the missile boat would have to give up a lot of missile bays to house the drones...[/quote]
Ah, miss-read that.

Funny you've mentioned a missile boat. That's the next build I'm about to put up :o

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