Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

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wbnc
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Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby wbnc » Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:45 am

I have an idea bouncing aroundin my head I'd like ot see wha people can add, point out obvious flaws in thinking.

Basically a 300-400 ton scout/pirate chaser Or "Interceptor"

rough notes
Thrust 9, with fast burn reaction drive for more oompfff
Jump 4( for travelling with a fleet or out jumping scouts etc.)
Sensors advanced Military, with ECM and Enhanced signal processing.
Stealth drives so it can enter a system without alerting anyone in the system
Emissions absorption and stealth hull.
light Armor with reflec and radiation shielding
Main weapons 2 missile barbettes
secondary weapons pulse lasers and sandcasters

Drop tank mounts: carried through jump most of the time..refill drop tans at destination if practical...or drop tanks for more speed.
Fuel processors and skimmers

I am not thinking of adding and boarding gear such as forced linkage or boarding tubes..their primary mission is to destroy the target not capture it.

I'm curious to know if people think this is a ship that would be one military/security forces would use, or any potential design features that should be added omitted...

it's primary role as I see it would be to sweep systems ahead of a fleet for enemy scouts, drones, sensor packages etc..during peacetime it would be used to hunt down pirates/privateers.

I'm thinking 400 tons would be enough to overpower most scouts, and armed merchant vessels used by pirate, even the odd corsair(anything smaller than a frigate or corvette)and give it room for fuel, drives, and log term facilities for a small crew and a squad of marines
phavoc
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby phavoc » Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:55 pm

wbnc wrote:I have an idea bouncing aroundin my head I'd like ot see wha people can add, point out obvious flaws in thinking.

Basically a 300-400 ton scout/pirate chaser Or "Interceptor"

rough notes
Thrust 9, with fast burn reaction drive for more oompfff
Jump 4( for travelling with a fleet or out jumping scouts etc.)
Sensors advanced Military, with ECM and Enhanced signal processing.
Stealth drives so it can enter a system without alerting anyone in the system
Emissions absorption and stealth hull.
light Armor with reflec and radiation shielding
Main weapons 2 missile barbettes
secondary weapons pulse lasers and sandcasters

Drop tank mounts: carried through jump most of the time..refill drop tans at destination if practical...or drop tanks for more speed.
Fuel processors and skimmers

I am not thinking of adding and boarding gear such as forced linkage or boarding tubes..their primary mission is to destroy the target not capture it.

I'm curious to know if people think this is a ship that would be one military/security forces would use, or any potential design features that should be added omitted...

it's primary role as I see it would be to sweep systems ahead of a fleet for enemy scouts, drones, sensor packages etc..during peacetime it would be used to hunt down pirates/privateers.

I'm thinking 400 tons would be enough to overpower most scouts, and armed merchant vessels used by pirate, even the odd corsair(anything smaller than a frigate or corvette)and give it room for fuel, drives, and log term facilities for a small crew and a squad of marines
As an advanced fleet scout, yes, I could see the need for it. I would change the weapons mix though, and go with a pair of particle accelerators, a triple sand turret and a triple laser turret. That would give it strong offensive power, decent defense for it's size.

I don't see something like that in the hands of system security forces though. It would be too much, especially since planetary authorities would be more interested, fiscally speaking, of having more hulls rather than capable of this type. Police forces wouldn't deploy something like this unless they were fully militarized (or the planetary government had a high law level and authoritarian government).
Reynard
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby Reynard » Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:50 pm

Highly specialized and expensive especially for pirate hunting which is better handled by cheaper SDB's and patrol cruisers. So much stealth seems better suited for commerce raiding.
Condottiere
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby Condottiere » Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:48 pm

So, if you have a hundred tonne drop tank, wouldn't that mean only three hardpoints?
Reynard
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby Reynard » Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:33 am

Normally, drop tanks are dropped, hence the name, and they alter the maneuver drive's potential. It also takes space on the craft for mounts and equipment. If you plan to drag them around thinking they're some cheap fuel tank, wrong. They're expensive and ADD to the overall ship displacement needing to recalculate maximum jump while attached and even then "Jumping using a drop tank applies a penalty of DM-15 minus the Tech Level of the drop tanks to the Engineer (J-drive) check required to make a jump". Yeah, not a good option for 'free' extra fuel capacity.

Have you tried designing the vessel so we can compare to other comparable ships?
wbnc
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby wbnc » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:45 am

Reynard wrote:Normally, drop tanks are dropped, hence the name, and they alter the maneuver drive's potential. It also takes space on the craft for mounts and equipment. If you plan to drag them around thinking they're some cheap fuel tank, wrong. They're expensive and ADD to the overall ship displacement needing to recalculate maximum jump while attached and even then "Jumping using a drop tank applies a penalty of DM-15 minus the Tech Level of the drop tanks to the Engineer (J-drive) check required to make a jump". Yeah, not a good option for 'free' extra fuel capacity.

Have you tried designing the vessel so we can compare to other comparable ships?
I have figured in the drop tanks tonnage into ratings for drives, and maneuver systems...( 600 tons with tanks, 400 tons without) it's rated to perform at listed numbers with it's tanks attached...so when the tanks are dropped performance improves.

Also with a TL-14 ship and tanks it's only a -1 on the engineer check so I figured that would be acceptable. I was trying to find away to allow it to jump in, then immediately jump out if it encountered resistance that was too powerful.and still be capable of much higher than normal performance if it had to. also since it is only 400 tons without tanks it only has to carry enough fuel for a 400 ton hull internally, 160 tons while the external tanks are 200 tons.( still thinking about the cost to return on fuel efficient drives)

I tried a couple of rough builds..nothing final..was waiting for some feedback before i did the solid numbers.

what I have gotten so far seems to be what I was expecting. weapons suggestions, viability for non military roles etc.... I just wanted to get an outside opinion on it then finalize the build/write up....which I will have in the next day or so.
steelbrok
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby steelbrok » Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:31 am

On a quick read through it looks like you've re-invented the Gazzelle close escort and/or its Fiery (IIRC) variant.
wbnc
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby wbnc » Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:41 pm

steelbrok wrote:On a quick read through it looks like you've re-invented the Gazzelle close escort and/or its Fiery (IIRC) variant.
It's hard not to have similarities. similar weight class, and weapons....better sensors, stealth, and faster.
Tom Kalbfus
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:33 pm

wbnc wrote:I have an idea bouncing aroundin my head I'd like ot see wha people can add, point out obvious flaws in thinking.

Basically a 300-400 ton scout/pirate chaser Or "Interceptor"

rough notes
Thrust 9, with fast burn reaction drive for more oompfff
Jump 4( for travelling with a fleet or out jumping scouts etc.)
Sensors advanced Military, with ECM and Enhanced signal processing.
Stealth drives so it can enter a system without alerting anyone in the system
Emissions absorption and stealth hull.
light Armor with reflec and radiation shielding
Main weapons 2 missile barbettes
secondary weapons pulse lasers and sandcasters

Drop tank mounts: carried through jump most of the time..refill drop tans at destination if practical...or drop tanks for more speed.
Fuel processors and skimmers

I am not thinking of adding and boarding gear such as forced linkage or boarding tubes..their primary mission is to destroy the target not capture it.
That would be awkward when it comes to rescuing hostages. One of the things pirates do is take hostages and hold them for ransom.
I'm curious to know if people think this is a ship that would be one military/security forces would use, or any potential design features that should be added omitted...

it's primary role as I see it would be to sweep systems ahead of a fleet for enemy scouts, drones, sensor packages etc..during peacetime it would be used to hunt down pirates/privateers.

I'm thinking 400 tons would be enough to overpower most scouts, and armed merchant vessels used by pirate, even the odd corsair(anything smaller than a frigate or corvette)and give it room for fuel, drives, and log term facilities for a small crew and a squad of marines
wbnc
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby wbnc » Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:19 am

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
wbnc wrote:I have an idea bouncing aroundin my head I'd like ot see wha people can add, point out obvious flaws in thinking.

Basically a 300-400 ton scout/pirate chaser Or "Interceptor"

rough notes
Thrust 9, with fast burn reaction drive for more oompfff
Jump 4( for travelling with a fleet or out jumping scouts etc.)
Sensors advanced Military, with ECM and Enhanced signal processing.
Stealth drives so it can enter a system without alerting anyone in the system
Emissions absorption and stealth hull.
light Armor with reflec and radiation shielding
Main weapons 2 missile barbettes
secondary weapons pulse lasers and sandcasters

Drop tank mounts: carried through jump most of the time..refill drop tans at destination if practical...or drop tanks for more speed.
Fuel processors and skimmers

I am not thinking of adding and boarding gear such as forced linkage or boarding tubes..their primary mission is to destroy the target not capture it.
That would be awkward when it comes to rescuing hostages. One of the things pirates do is take hostages and hold them for ransom.
I'm curious to know if people think this is a ship that would be one military/security forces would use, or any potential design features that should be added omitted...

it's primary role as I see it would be to sweep systems ahead of a fleet for enemy scouts, drones, sensor packages etc..during peacetime it would be used to hunt down pirates/privateers.

I'm thinking 400 tons would be enough to overpower most scouts, and armed merchant vessels used by pirate, even the odd corsair(anything smaller than a frigate or corvette)and give it room for fuel, drives, and log term facilities for a small crew and a squad of marines
I haven't decided yet on the extra gear such as breaching tubes etc....the marines would be used once a ship was disabled, or had surrendered, rather than attempting a forced boarding.
Condottiere
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby Condottiere » Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:43 am

You have to disable a ship to board it, so I'd optimize armament with that in mind.

For pirates or raiders, the way to protect a convoy is to mission kill their ships.
wbnc
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby wbnc » Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:30 am

Condottiere wrote:You have to disable a ship to board it, so I'd optimize armament with that in mind.

For pirates or raiders, the way to protect a convoy is to mission kill their ships.
That was my original reason for not installing breaching tubes, and forced linkage, boarding craft...a lot of space dedicated to a secondary mission, primary mission being termination with extreme prejudice.
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby Askold » Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:00 pm

phavoc wrote:
As an advanced fleet scout, yes, I could see the need for it. I would change the weapons mix though, and go with a pair of particle accelerators, a triple sand turret and a triple laser turret. That would give it strong offensive power, decent defense for it's size.

I don't see something like that in the hands of system security forces though. It would be too much, especially since planetary authorities would be more interested, fiscally speaking, of having more hulls rather than capable of this type. Police forces wouldn't deploy something like this unless they were fully militarized (or the planetary government had a high law level and authoritarian government).
The way I see it a fast pirate chaser ship is exactly what a police force needs. If the pirates can make a jump before the law enforcement gets to them chasing them is nearly impossible in Traveller. You need a fast ship for that kind of job.

System defense forces might not need speed if their main objective is to defend space stations and the planet(s) and their ship is already in the right position but if they have been suffering pirate activity they too might get such a ship.
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby Reynard » Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:59 pm

With the rules allowing ships to have greater thrust for movement, I can see SDBs and Police Cutters becoming faster and, ton for ton against a jump ship, deadlier. Yes the Pirate Chaser has the mobility until you add SDB tenders for moving the load to a system with pirate activity.

In my estimation. The SIPC is a large, expensive ship with a very specific function for a not very common mission profile. When you look at ship encounters and discount player pirates, pirate events aren't too common for justification. And a 400-500 ton atom smasher just to annihilate 100 ton scouts is a bit overkill too. The ship sounds more like a special raider for the military or a government especially for harassing trade or disrupting another system's defenses. Pretty much a terror weapon.
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby Torbyne » Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:41 pm

Maybe a role as a special purpose and retrieval craft? jump in, rush a target, disable, board, grab data/Person of Interest/Macguffin and escape before a serious reaction can be mustered? I could see a Special Intelligence service or the like operating a very small number of such craft. i would also buy the largest of corporations having a few such as deniable assets for hindering competition or "acquiring" talent and prototypes.
phavoc
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby phavoc » Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:46 pm

Askold wrote:
phavoc wrote:
As an advanced fleet scout, yes, I could see the need for it. I would change the weapons mix though, and go with a pair of particle accelerators, a triple sand turret and a triple laser turret. That would give it strong offensive power, decent defense for it's size.

I don't see something like that in the hands of system security forces though. It would be too much, especially since planetary authorities would be more interested, fiscally speaking, of having more hulls rather than capable of this type. Police forces wouldn't deploy something like this unless they were fully militarized (or the planetary government had a high law level and authoritarian government).
The way I see it a fast pirate chaser ship is exactly what a police force needs. If the pirates can make a jump before the law enforcement gets to them chasing them is nearly impossible in Traveller. You need a fast ship for that kind of job.

System defense forces might not need speed if their main objective is to defend space stations and the planet(s) and their ship is already in the right position but if they have been suffering pirate activity they too might get such a ship.
A police force doesn't need a jump-capable ship, as their authority ends, technically, at the 100D limit.

SDB's would want as much speed as possible. They are tiny little things compared to a capital ship. They would need at least the same speed as the CA's and CL's and even DD's that would be tasked with hunting them down to kill them.
wbnc
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby wbnc » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:13 pm

phavoc wrote:
Askold wrote:
phavoc wrote:
As an advanced fleet scout, yes, I could see the need for it. I would change the weapons mix though, and go with a pair of particle accelerators, a triple sand turret and a triple laser turret. That would give it strong offensive power, decent defense for it's size.

I don't see something like that in the hands of system security forces though. It would be too much, especially since planetary authorities would be more interested, fiscally speaking, of having more hulls rather than capable of this type. Police forces wouldn't deploy something like this unless they were fully militarized (or the planetary government had a high law level and authoritarian government).
The way I see it a fast pirate chaser ship is exactly what a police force needs. If the pirates can make a jump before the law enforcement gets to them chasing them is nearly impossible in Traveller. You need a fast ship for that kind of job.

System defense forces might not need speed if their main objective is to defend space stations and the planet(s) and their ship is already in the right position but if they have been suffering pirate activity they too might get such a ship.
A police force doesn't need a jump-capable ship, as their authority ends, technically, at the 100D limit.
SDB's would want as much speed as possible. They are tiny little things compared to a capital ship. They would need at least the same speed as the CA's and CL's and even DD's that would be tasked with hunting them down to kill them.
you have a good point there....


So, with some feedback I think I am going to work this out as three variations

Military: as proposed with particle beams instead of missiles
Non Military: remove stealth and emissions absorption. Maintain maximum speed, and reduce jump range to J-3 Armed with Missiles, lasers, and sand. Add boarding gear..remove fittings for drop tanks. which greatly reduces cost for non military buyers.
In system Interceptor: remove Jump drives, stealth, and emissions absorption. increase armor, weapons load missiles and lasers. heavy armor (as heavy as possible without reducing engine output.) boarding gear small craft.

I leaning toward missiles on the non military and system boat since I feel that particle beams would be reserved for military vessels.
phavoc
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby phavoc » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:48 pm

Police might just go with lasers and a single sand turret. Lasers are basic, cheap and multi-purpose. Unless you want to make this a SWAT-like vessel.
wbnc
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby wbnc » Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:24 pm

phavoc wrote:Police might just go with lasers and a single sand turret. Lasers are basic, cheap and multi-purpose. Unless you want to make this a SWAT-like vessel.
This would definitely be an armed response vessel....Pretty much the Pursuit special from mad max....if the System shelled out the Mcr for this ship they don't send it screaming across the system because someone skipped out on their docking fees.


However you have a point, a single triple sand...and three triple pulse lasers would definitely be enough to wreck most ships they would ever encounter...and save a lot of money and space over Missile barbettes and the missiles to feed them.
phavoc
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Re: Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

Postby phavoc » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:11 am

Keep in mind the roles here. Cops would be in launches or cutters. Those are appropriate for police duties. In local space it would probably be more along the lines of a space guard (i.e. Coast Guard) who would be patrolling and such. Then you have para-military, and pure military. A 400 ton ship for cops is a lot. It's even big for a space guard, if you want to compare it to standard coast guard cutter ships in the fleet today. the largest of the cutters are frigate-sized, but they are also deep-ocean ships that get deployed around the world (and they have a military component attached to them as well).

You may want to pick up the MT supplement COACC for some additional source material.

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