Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

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ShawnDriscoll
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:56 am

It doesn't really matter anyway when the liquid hydrogen gets used up while "in jump", as long as it does get used up. The energy from the jump drive applies towards creating the jump bubble only and is not used by anything else on the ship. The power plant has its own 2 weeks, or so, of fuel for everything else that's bolted down.

Does shooting a gun include loading the thing? Does driving a car mean anything when it has auto-drive?

Traveller can be used for any kind of setting for any kind of ship. Referee how you want stuff to work in your game. Or let the engineering character on the ship state how stuff works.
Last edited by ShawnDriscoll on Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
phavoc
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby phavoc » Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:29 pm

allanimal wrote:1st edition Mongoose (or other editions of traveller, other external sources, etc.) are irrelevant - we're talking about 2nd edition Mongoose core rule book here. One can't be expected to buy other stuff to use the core rules of the game.
Had you compared the passages you would have seen that what is listed in the 1st edition is the same verbiage listed in the 2nd edition. And the point I made remains a valid one. I wasn't trying to say 'buy all the previous versions'. I was attempting to provide additional background information in regards to the question at hand.

allanimal wrote:Here is some evidence that the jump does include the time spent in jump space, and is not simply the act of transitioning to jump space:
2nd Ed CRB p153 wrote:starships usually make two jumps per month. They spend one week in jump, followed...
The ship is "in jump" during that week.
Show me where the jump drive does not need power during the "in jump" time?
I do not see where you question is coming from. Please show me where it says the time in jump space isn't reflected in real-time? Pg 148, 2nd Edition:

A jump carries the vessel a number of parsecs equal to the jump number. Jumps of less than one parsec (less than three light years, or one hex) are possible, and count as jump-1 for the purposes of Astrogation checks and fuel expenditure. Regardless of how far the ship jumps, it always stays in jump space for roughly one week (148 + 6D hours).


None of that is new. It's been the same in every version, and as far as I recall, every version has stated that explicitly somewhere in the core book for that edition.
allanimal wrote:To me, "one week in jump" is part of "makes a jump". Because you can't "make a jump" without spending that "one week in jump" - it's all part of the complete jump process. I can see how one could read "makes a jump" to mean "initiating the jump" (pulling the trigger on the catapult, to use Belisknar's word), but can you not also see how one may interpret it as the entire process of jumping from one place and showing up at another? And if you can see it both ways, can you not agree that adding a couple words to the text to specify which one is intended would be a good thing?
I don't see an issue here at all. To me the text is quite clear about how jump travel works, how long you spend in jump space, and the fact that your jump drive only requires power to get you into jumpspace. You will pop out on your own without any additional work or effort.

You are pointing out one of the problems that has been inherent in the MGT books since they were first being published - that things are often spread out amongst different chapters. There is no one-page explanation about all the issues related to jump travel. To get a clear picture you have to look in lots of places, or outside of the books to articles that provide a more clear explanation. I see where you are going with your point, but I doubt anything will be done to change it at this point.


allanimal wrote:I'm also not seeing in the CRB 2nd ed where it states all jump fuel is used up the instant jump travel starts... Again, maybe I missed it. Again, if it is important for game play, it needs to be in this book, not in High Guard 2nd edition or any other traveller book ever written (or magazine, or web site, or comment from Marc Miller at some con in Milwaukee in '82.). Not everyone has the same RPG experiences & history (and book collection) as others, especially those new to the game. The info, if it is important and key to the game mechanics, needs to be in this book.

I did a search of the CRB for both "fuel" and "Hydrogen", neither search turned up a reference to all jump fuel being consumed instantaneously. This one doesn't have any major mechanical impact that I can think of, so I don't see an issue, so I won't push for a clarification in this book...
I did not find anything either. It's a valid point. And I think the response will be that it will be handled in High Guard, as that's where they talk about fuel requirements. A number of little things are getting yanked out of the CRB that really belong in there. Assuming you keep the idea that no starship design system will remain the CRB, the fundamental explanations on why things work the way they do should remain. But good luck in getting that changed.
allanimal
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby allanimal » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:51 pm

phavoc wrote:
I don't see an issue here at all. To me the text is quite clear about ... the fact that your jump drive only requires power to get you into jumpspace.
It isn't clear to me. The Power requirement on p.144 says "this power requirement is only needed when the ship actually makes a jump". Why isn't the entire jump, from start to finish, "makes a jump"? Why is it only starting the jump?
Is there another passage I am missing?
ShawnDriscoll
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:44 pm

allanimal wrote:
phavoc wrote:
I don't see an issue here at all. To me the text is quite clear about ... the fact that your jump drive only requires power to get you into jumpspace.
It isn't clear to me. The Power requirement on p.144 says "this power requirement is only needed when the ship actually makes a jump". Why isn't the entire jump, from start to finish, "makes a jump"? Why is it only starting the jump?
Is there another passage I am missing?
It's been missing for 38+ years. That's why every referee does their own narration for jumping.
phavoc
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby phavoc » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:39 am

allanimal wrote:
phavoc wrote:
I don't see an issue here at all. To me the text is quite clear about ... the fact that your jump drive only requires power to get you into jumpspace.
It isn't clear to me. The Power requirement on p.144 says "this power requirement is only needed when the ship actually makes a jump". Why isn't the entire jump, from start to finish, "makes a jump"? Why is it only starting the jump?
Is there another passage I am missing?
You need to put it into context. A ship starts a jump, but once it has jumped the natural degradation of its pocket universe takes over and it will reenter normal space whenever it does (that's the random factor you roll for). No power is required to exit jump space. No power can be used to maneuver in jump space. Everything is keyed upon getting into jump space. And that's it.
allanimal
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby allanimal » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:16 am

phavoc wrote:
allanimal wrote:
phavoc wrote:
I don't see an issue here at all. To me the text is quite clear about ... the fact that your jump drive only requires power to get you into jumpspace.
It isn't clear to me. The Power requirement on p.144 says "this power requirement is only needed when the ship actually makes a jump". Why isn't the entire jump, from start to finish, "makes a jump"? Why is it only starting the jump?
Is there another passage I am missing?
You need to put it into context. A ship starts a jump, but once it has jumped the natural degradation of its pocket universe takes over and it will reenter normal space whenever it does (that's the random factor you roll for). No power is required to exit jump space. No power can be used to maneuver in jump space. Everything is keyed upon getting into jump space. And that's it.
I can see that, especially based on this and other discussions about the topic.
But a new player, who has only has this traveller book, and has never been in a traveller forum or talked to another traveller player, may not get the same impression...
ShawnDriscoll
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:34 am

allanimal wrote:But a new player, who has only has this traveller book, and has never been in a traveller forum or talked to another traveller player, may not get the same impression...
That is normal. Thus the forums here, for those that still use forums. This forum worked for you, so it may still be of use to others new to Traveller.

It used to be S.A.S.E.s back in the day for getting a return answer.
phavoc
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby phavoc » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:40 pm

allanimal wrote:I can see that, especially based on this and other discussions about the topic.
But a new player, who has only has this traveller book, and has never been in a traveller forum or talked to another traveller player, may not get the same impression...
I don't disagree with you here. I'm a big proponent of clear, interesting and concise explanations and reasons for things. But I do not foresee anything changing at this point, especially since they are using the CRB 1.0 as the basis for the 2.0. I don't agree with all the changes being made, but like every customer I don't get a vote in the product creation. However you, and I and everyone else DO get to vote with our gaming dollars.
phavoc
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby phavoc » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:43 pm

ShawnDriscoll wrote:
allanimal wrote:But a new player, who has only has this traveller book, and has never been in a traveller forum or talked to another traveller player, may not get the same impression...
That is normal. Thus the forums here, for those that still use forums. This forum worked for you, so it may still be of use to others new to Traveller.

It used to be S.A.S.E.s back in the day for getting a return answer.
The entire point of the conversation is that is doesn't NEED to be this way. And I'm not sure I would say it's "normal". Other games are able to fully explain the underlying mechanics of their gaming universe with ease. There's no reason why MG cannot do the same.

As a player I evaluate a game based on the books that I can pick up and read (or PDF's). I've yet to meet a player who factors in gaming forums they may be unaware of at the time of purchase as a factor in determining whether or not to purchase the game. Back "in the day" it was even more incumbent upon publishers to release supplements that had gone through exhaustive editing and checking. Sadly that attention to detail is sorely lacking today.
FallingPhoenix
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby FallingPhoenix » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:51 pm

allanimal wrote:
phavoc wrote:
allanimal wrote:
It isn't clear to me. The Power requirement on p.144 says "this power requirement is only needed when the ship actually makes a jump". Why isn't the entire jump, from start to finish, "makes a jump"? Why is it only starting the jump?
Is there another passage I am missing?
You need to put it into context. A ship starts a jump, but once it has jumped the natural degradation of its pocket universe takes over and it will reenter normal space whenever it does (that's the random factor you roll for). No power is required to exit jump space. No power can be used to maneuver in jump space. Everything is keyed upon getting into jump space. And that's it.
I can see that, especially based on this and other discussions about the topic.
But a new player, who has only has this traveller book, and has never been in a traveller forum or talked to another traveller player, may not get the same impression...
For what it's worth, just from what the sentences mentioned, I would have interpreted it as the jump drive needs to be powered the whole time the ship's in jump before I read this thread.

And whether the fuel is used all at the beginning or not has huge implications for whether you can use drop tanks or not...
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby Condottiere » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:46 pm

It's the difference between driving through hyperspace, or gliding.
deejaay
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby deejaay » Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:10 pm

So back to allanimal's first question, does the Far Trader have to sacrifice another system power to initiate a jump? Because it is currently deficient in power production to maintain both.
OR does the Far Trader need to be edited from 75 power to 100?

And could someone define what Jump Dimming is to me? Figured that is a term that answers the question. Is it temporarily stopping power consumption of a system to power the jump?
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby phavoc » Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:29 pm

deejaay wrote:So back to allanimal's first question, does the Far Trader have to sacrifice another system power to initiate a jump? Because it is currently deficient in power production to maintain both.
OR does the Far Trader need to be edited from 75 power to 100?

And could someone define what Jump Dimming is to me? Figured that is a term that answers the question. Is it temporarily stopping power consumption of a system to power the jump?
In order to jump, both the Free and Far trader must stop powering their maneuver drives and switch that power to their jump drive.

Jump dimming isn't used in the game. It is a flavor/setting that harkens back to the first jump-equipped ships where every available erg of power was needed to power the jump drive. The "dimming" relates to the idea that they turned off most of the lights and non-essential systems on the ship to re-route power. The story goes that some ships still do it today even though they don't need to, mostly for passengers, as crew know the truth and could care less.
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby deejaay » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:32 pm

Thanks phavoc, appreciate the info.
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allanimal
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby allanimal » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:59 pm

phavoc wrote: In order to jump, both the Free and Far trader must stop powering their maneuver drives and switch that power to their jump drive.

Jump dimming isn't used in the game. It is a flavor/setting that harkens back to the first jump-equipped ships where every available erg of power was needed to power the jump drive. The "dimming" relates to the idea that they turned off most of the lights and non-essential systems on the ship to re-route power. The story goes that some ships still do it today even though they don't need to, mostly for passengers, as crew know the truth and could care less.
Free and Far trader also have to shut down some non-essential systems.

The far trader generates 75 power, jump takes 40.
Basic systems are also 40. If low births are in use, that's another one.
That's 5 points short, 6 if low births are in use.
Basic systems can be temporarily reduced to 50%, so the power is there if some basic systems are shut down. This is a perfect example of "jump dimming".
[Now, if the jump drive power consumption can be reduced/eliminated after entering jump space, we can turn the lights back on and everything is OK. This brings us back too my original question, if the jump drive is needed to be powered for the entire jump, then it is going to be an unpleasant trip, suffering thru 1 week in darkness & without video games...]

The free trader only needs to "dim" if it is using the low births:
Power plant generates 60 power, jump drive takes 40. Basic Systems takes 20, low births take up to 2. So the captain's choice will be, keep the popsicles alive, or make that cappuccino... If they people in the low birth have already paid, I can think of a few captains that would opt for the coffee.
{Looking back at it, I think the Free trader entry has an error - the jump power should only be 20. 200 tons * 10% * Jump-1 = 20.}
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby phavoc » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:28 pm

Doesn't the basic systems power also incorporate the weapon systems? You'd have to parse out the various systems and their power requirements to say that dimming the lights is a necessity.
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby allanimal » Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:53 pm

phavoc wrote:Doesn't the basic systems power also incorporate the weapon systems? You'd have to parse out the various systems and their power requirements to say that dimming the lights is a necessity.
I was under the impression that weapons were in addition to the basic systems.
P 143-144 lists 4 categories
Basic systems
Manoeuvre drive
Jump drive
Weapons and systems

Basically, everything listed with a power cost (sensors, low births, weapons, turrets, etc.) falls under "weapons and systems".

Basic systems are the generic, unspecified item, "cost of running a ship of this size" power overhead. Your lights, waffle iron, life support systems, video game consoles, etc.
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Re: Free Trader and Far Trader Can't Jump

Postby AndrewW » Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:59 pm

phavoc wrote:Doesn't the basic systems power also incorporate the weapon systems? You'd have to parse out the various systems and their power requirements to say that dimming the lights is a necessity.
Weapon power requirements are separate from basic systems.

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