Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

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FallingPhoenix
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Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby FallingPhoenix » Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:19 am

Does anyone have any ideas why a TL-12 society with "grav-supported structures [that] reach to the heavens" since TL-11 would ever use an Armored Fighting Vehicle with wheels?

Basically, does this vehicle even make sense?

Actually, this question easily applies to the TL-12 ATV, too.
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Nerhesi
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Re: Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby Nerhesi » Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:11 am

Are there cost options around this? Savings?

I dont think it's so much as why as it is why not? Maybe it'll be cheaper... or maybe grav tech is heavily controlled as it is in some OTU worlds (can't remember, but trojan reach somewhere).. or or or etc...

You're right in that, if it's not significantly cheaper, you may not see much.
Meeko100
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Re: Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby Meeko100 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:54 am

It is possible that, even though grav-tech at TL-12 can support large cities, it requires a amount of power that only a large city could possibly provide. The power needed to make vehicles fly may not be easily downsized at that level of tech to fit in a tank sized vehicle. The mass not only of the drive system but also the chassis, and the rest of the vehicle itself, and the armor a combat vehicle would want may make grav-propulsion of the design untenable at that level of tech, even if g-belts are workable. They just have to carry the drive unit and the 75-100 kg human strapped into it.

But it does seem odd that there isn't some kind of grav vehicle then. A early grav tank that was much more lightly armored then a tracked tank but could fly. Something like that.
ShawnDriscoll
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Re: Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:54 am

Steel wheel on rail is still the best way to travel (energy-wise).
Condottiere
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Re: Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby Condottiere » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:29 pm

If AFV is armoured fighting vehicle, as opposed to APC, which is a personnel carrier, than by tech level it's obsolete, since at best, they'd use tracks to spread the weight. Since I assume there would only be the equivalents for a heavy tank, an MBT, and what would be is an armoured car.
Tenacious-Techhunter
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Re: Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby Tenacious-Techhunter » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:26 pm

ShawnDriscoll wrote:Steel wheel on rail is still the best way to travel (energy-wise).
Which bears absolutely no resemblance to this discussion, for the following reasons:

1. A train bears no resemblance to the vehicle in question.

2. Wheeled trains are hardly at their maximum TL; they may well have some innovations yet.

3. Efficiency is not often the driving factor for Military Vehicles.

Here are two much more relevant examples from history:

Steam engines, which were quickly replaced by gasoline and diesel engines in just about every application

Nuclear
fusion
(sorry, fission) power, which, while replacing the power systems for military applications, will not soon replace gasoline, diesel, or liquid natural gas for civilian applications, even where they really should, if they can find a way to dispose of the thing afterward; for instance, on Container or Cruise Ships.
Last edited by Tenacious-Techhunter on Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
ShawnDriscoll
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Re: Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:35 pm

Steam engines on rails are more energy efficient than hovercrafts with linear induction motors. Oh, you mentioned fusion. I thought you were talking about real life, and not about a game. Make up your mind.
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Re: Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby cavebear » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:41 pm

Tenacious-Techhunter wrote: Nuclear fusion power, which, while replacing the power systems for military applications, will not soon replace gasoline, diesel, or liquid natural gas for civilian applications, even where they really should, if they can find a way to dispose of the thing afterward; for instance, on Container or Cruise Ships.
Tenacious-Techhunter,

That is a really salient point too. As an example, the NS Savannah which has a nuclear reactor and was launched in 1959, was decommissioned in 1971 but the main reactor is still in the ship and will be regulated until 2031

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Savannah
Tenacious-Techhunter
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Re: Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby Tenacious-Techhunter » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:43 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:Steam engines on rails are more energy efficient than hovercrafts with linear induction motors. Oh, you mentioned fusion. I thought you were talking about real life, and not about a game. Make up your mind.
I'd congratulate you on your catch, but you were just doing it to troll me, so I won't. We both know I meant fission, and I'll correct that post for clarity.
ShawnDriscoll
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Re: Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:05 am

Tenacious-Techhunter wrote:
ShawnDriscoll wrote:Steam engines on rails are more energy efficient than hovercrafts with linear induction motors. Oh, you mentioned fusion. I thought you were talking about real life, and not about a game. Make up your mind.
I'd congratulate you on your catch, but you were just doing it to troll me, so I won't. We both know I meant fission, and I'll correct that post for clarity.
Show me a hovercraft that runs on fission.
FallingPhoenix
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Re: Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby FallingPhoenix » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:33 pm

Meeko100 wrote:It is possible that, even though grav-tech at TL-12 can support large cities, it requires a amount of power that only a large city could possibly provide. The power needed to make vehicles fly may not be easily downsized at that level of tech to fit in a tank sized vehicle. The mass not only of the drive system but also the chassis, and the rest of the vehicle itself, and the armor a combat vehicle would want may make grav-propulsion of the design untenable at that level of tech, even if g-belts are workable. They just have to carry the drive unit and the 75-100 kg human strapped into it.

But it does seem odd that there isn't some kind of grav vehicle then. A early grav tank that was much more lightly armored then a tracked tank but could fly. Something like that.
I'd be totally okay with this, but the rules as currently written allow all types of grav vehicles at TL 8...
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Infojunky
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Re: Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby Infojunky » Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:21 pm

FallingPhoenix wrote:Does anyone have any ideas why a TL-12 society with "grav-supported structures [that] reach to the heavens" since TL-11 would ever use an Armored Fighting Vehicle with wheels?

Basically, does this vehicle even make sense?

Actually, this question easily applies to the TL-12 ATV, too.
Cost? Traction? Are a couple of ideas why.

I would expect even with the proliferation of Contragravity there would still be considerable amount of ground vehicles...
Evyn
FallingPhoenix
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Re: Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby FallingPhoenix » Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:13 pm

Infojunky wrote:
FallingPhoenix wrote:Does anyone have any ideas why a TL-12 society with "grav-supported structures [that] reach to the heavens" since TL-11 would ever use an Armored Fighting Vehicle with wheels?

Basically, does this vehicle even make sense?

Actually, this question easily applies to the TL-12 ATV, too.
Cost? Traction? Are a couple of ideas why.

I would expect even with the proliferation of Contragravity there would still be considerable amount of ground vehicles...
Right, but for an Armoured Fighting Vehicle? Cost shouldn't be an issue, and I can't think of any reason it would be the common option. I'm wondering if, while there may be a niche use for this vehicle, it's inappropriate as an example vehicle in the core rulebook?
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Infojunky
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Re: Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby Infojunky » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:22 pm

FallingPhoenix wrote:
Right, but for an Armoured Fighting Vehicle? Cost shouldn't be an issue, and I can't think of any reason it would be the common option. I'm wondering if, while there may be a niche use for this vehicle, it's inappropriate as an example vehicle in the core rulebook?
Actually where are the Hovercraft as well?
Evyn
FallingPhoenix
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Re: Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby FallingPhoenix » Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:16 pm

Infojunky wrote:
FallingPhoenix wrote:
Right, but for an Armoured Fighting Vehicle? Cost shouldn't be an issue, and I can't think of any reason it would be the common option. I'm wondering if, while there may be a niche use for this vehicle, it's inappropriate as an example vehicle in the core rulebook?
Actually where are the Hovercraft as well?
Hey, that's a good point. I can't see a chassis that could be used to build a hovercraft!
"We can disagree without being disagreeable." - Gordon B. Hinckley
phavoc
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Re: Why have a Wheeled AFV at TL-12?

Postby phavoc » Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:15 am

FallingPhoenix wrote:Does anyone have any ideas why a TL-12 society with "grav-supported structures [that] reach to the heavens" since TL-11 would ever use an Armored Fighting Vehicle with wheels?

Basically, does this vehicle even make sense?

Actually, this question easily applies to the TL-12 ATV, too.
I would suspect your mainline military units would switch to grav early on because of its inherent mobility advantages. However there are still some reasons to do this:

1) Cost - Non-grav vehicles should be far cheaper than grav. This also makes sense when you look at who is using it. Not everyone has all the credits necessary to invest in grav vehicles, and many merc units will always look to cut their costs where they can.

2) Use - Say your vehicle is assigned to secondary or milita units who's primary duties were riot control. The vehicle would be better suited staying on the ground than in the air.

3) Environment - Some environments are not well-suited for grav vehicles. Places that have continuous strong wind currents would be a bane for aerial craft but may not affect wheeled or tracked ones. You also may be in say a heavily forested environment that would prevent a grav vehicle from being closer to the ground than one that is on the ground.

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