TL 14 - Collectors

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wbnc
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby wbnc » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:52 pm

Sometimes the easiest way to plug a hole is to add a bit of explanation rather than new rules.

Saying that collectors use a different source of fuel, but is compatible with normal drives is easiest. just a sentence or two and yer good.
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Reynard
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby Reynard » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:57 pm

Collectors for jump and solar sails for in system maneuvering. Sounds like a space going clipper for nobility.
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby wbnc » Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:09 am

Reynard wrote:Collectors for jump and solar sails for in system maneuvering. Sounds like a space going clipper for nobility.

Or an explorer/scout that can't depend on a depot, or gas giant in the system it wants to visit. It would also allow military vessels to move through systems without gas giants or depots.fit a scut with solar sails, a solar power array, and collectors and it can go where other scout/explorers can't.

I can see why the technology would be of real interest to any space going society.A functional technology to avoid depending on fixed sources of fuel would give a bit of strategic surprise/flexibility to the force that put it into the field first.

Yes, It takes longer but you aren't dragging a fleet of tankers along with you...having a few drop tanks mounted allows a quick jump if the need arises.
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby PsiTraveller » Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:29 am

The shortest distance returns to being a straight line, not a Main that eventually gets to where you want to go.

For stealth operations this frees up a lot of issues. It also makes getting to those forsaken systems much easier.

One issue for traders is if they spend a lot of time in empty parsecs on their straight line course they are not making money that week engaging in trade at a Main world. So make sure your final selling price is worth the trip.

For the military this is a great technology even at TL 12 with Disadvantages. It allows for a steady logistical network to be built up that does not require huge amounts of fuel.

It makes the Rift less of a deterent if Virus ever breaks out. Could you imagine virus ships heading across the rift into Deneb from every sector? Ouch.
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby Nerhesi » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:16 pm

Yeah - we definitely need to address this. Maybe TL17 or High/Alternate Technology.

You know what strikes me as really weird... that fact that Meson Bay and Fusion & Particle & Plasma Turrets were moved to High/Alternate Technology.. but this thing can stay!!! What in the world...

Obviously not your issue Matt... I'm a bit aware of the details at work :)
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby AndrewW » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:07 am

Nerhesi wrote:You know what strikes me as really weird... that fact that Meson Bay and Fusion & Particle & Plasma Turrets were moved to High/Alternate Technology.. but this thing can stay!!! What in the world...
One of those items pulled in from T5...
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby Nerhesi » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:09 am

AndrewW wrote:
Nerhesi wrote:You know what strikes me as really weird... that fact that Meson Bay and Fusion & Particle & Plasma Turrets were moved to High/Alternate Technology.. but this thing can stay!!! What in the world...
One of those items pulled in from T5...
Sure. Still wrapping my head around just how this fundamentally changes the entire friggin OTU... as almost everyone above has pointed out as well.
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby Captain Jonah » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:58 pm

I looked at this and the first thing I did was put a minimum of 2,000Dtons on it so the player level ships can't use it.

Then looking at the trade while it changes the higher end run by the mega corps it creates advantages for the player level ships. The ones than can arrive, refuel and jump out in under 24 hours, the ones who can respond to the 'Must be there in 8 days' or the 'very urgent'.

The collector / accumulators are fantastic, they free up huge volumes for more cargo and will drop prices for shipping across the board. BUT. The whole week long recharge means the big companies and mega corps are going to need more big ships to maintain trade speeds since they will need one charging and one jumping rather than a quick refuel.

That would leave the players at the bottom charging book prices for the faster service and for runs off the mains and scheduled trade routes. The little fish working the edges of the shark crowd.

Big changes at the verse scale, but some advantages the small ships can use. Overall the macro scale changes but who notices.
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby phavoc » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:25 pm

Depending on how you want to interpret the rules here, it would be possible for regular freight ships to not even mount collectors. Instead at the departure system they simply take on exotic particles that are being regularly accumulated by free-floating 'farms' of collectors. Much like hydrogen is.

Unless the accumulators themselves somehow trap the particles and you need your own trapped particles to initiate a jump. But that detail doesn't seem to be part of the explanation.

The other thing is that hydrogen was transformed to create exotic particles and create the jump bubble. Not quite sure where the exotic differentation is supposed to come into play.
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby ErinPalette » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:20 pm

So I just discovered Collectors last night, and let me point out the elephant in the room no one seems to notice:

J-6 Xboats are now efficient. (link to Google Sheet of J-6 Xb)

Sure, the week of downtime would be a detriment to a merchant ship or a PC group. But for the IISS, who maintains a fleet of Xboats in a relay state, the benefit of having mail moving at J-6 instead of J-4 outweighs that drawback so much that it's a no-brainer.
phavoc wrote:Depending on how you want to interpret the rules here, it would be possible for regular freight ships to not even mount collectors. Instead at the departure system they simply take on exotic particles that are being regularly accumulated by free-floating 'farms' of collectors. Much like hydrogen is.
This was literally my second thought. "What's stopping the IISS or the Navy from setting up Collector stations to serve as fuel depots?" There's nothing in the (tiny) flavor text to indicate these stored exotic particles can't be transferred.

Or, heck, how about this: Capital ships no longer need to devote massive amounts of volume to jump fuel! Give them a collector for their Jump-4 drive (maybe even Jump-6 with the volume savings) and then carry enough fuel for a Jump-1 or 2.

Did you meet your military objective? Then spend time recharging.
Need to get out in a hurry? Jump to the next system over or into empty space and then recharge.

I'm pretty sure that Collector technology is going to revolutionize/horribly break Navy ship design.
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby Nerhesi » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:40 pm

Yup.

The only time you wouldn't use collectors is basically adhoc small shipments. The way that a process can be designed is such that normal shipping can easily be replaced by the daisy-chain benefit of having pre-planned ships.

In fact, even small-adhoc shipments can be dealt with through careful planning of holding over 1-10% of your cargo space to capitalize on those items.

Even though I would say that "storing" and "transfering" exotic particles is a logical jump, and can be easily refuted with an adhoc statement stating it has to charge the drive directly, the effect of collectors is still *huge*.

Even if you were to design every ship as a Jump-6, 10% standard fuel, and 6% collector.
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby ErinPalette » Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:02 am

Ooh, another idea: Collectors AND Drop Tanks! Either two back-to-back jumps, or (for military ships) you jump in, do your deed, and then jump out again.
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby Nerhesi » Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:36 am

So I decided to open up my t5

Collectors sure are in there - but at tl 14 are limited to powering a jump 1 - ONE ParSec. If this is carried forward then sure - they can remain niche use
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby PsiTraveller » Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:17 am

At J1 for a TL 14 system a Colelctor equipped ship could still serve as a cheap mule to transfer material/cargo/troops in a straight line across any Rift. Higher Tech levels may allow longer Jumps or faster recharge time (High Tech Level adjustment advantage).

If the exotic particles can be stored and tranferred to a different ship then you will get large installations to charge ships. Can they store more than 1 Jumps worth of particles? The Volume of storage compartment needs to be calculated per charge unit, and the longevity of the particles. They can be stored for a week to power a unit up. If the ship does not jump for a few more days do the charges dissipate, replaced by 'fresh' particles captured?

These are all fun things to ponder. :D
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby ErinPalette » Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:38 am

The easiest way to prevent a lot of abuse is to explicitly state that the exotic particles can only be found in quantity in a solar system (likely emanating from the stellar body), and that if done in deep space it increases the recharge time by X weeks.

Because otherwise, Rifts become a thing of the past. Just load the cargo bay with plenty of food, make sure you have enough fuel to keep the power plant running for the months it will take you, and then make like Thor Heyerdahl aboard the Kon-Tiki!
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby Nerhesi » Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:54 am

Or simply, as it stands by RAW - nothing really stating you can store the particles. Also considering it is taken from T5 - where the tl level controls the jump, it would mean th collector is part of the jump drive, as it can only power a jump 1 at tl 14
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby phavoc » Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:27 am

Yes, because it's not stated either way it's open to interpretation. The point of rules is to provide boundaries. After that if you can be clever or innovative enough to use it in a creative way, then all is well.

The problem with the accumulator as standard tech is that is a total game changer. I think it was fine to have with Annic Nova, but introducing them the way they are coming about is not, in my opinion, doing any favor with the Traveller universe. It breaks too many past concepts and supplements.
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby PsiTraveller » Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:43 am

I am waiting to see if Mongoose does a new Psion book, and if they leave in the Advanced Talents. Fold Space and Drive Augmentation make Collectors look quaint by comparison.
Fold Space: who needs Jump engines?
Drive Augmentation: J6 for J1 fuel usage. (Assuming you have the points)

The Zhodani should be ruling the verse.
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby ErinPalette » Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:28 am

PsiTraveller wrote:The Zhodani should be ruling the verse.
Fortunately for the Imperium, psionics are rare (and advanced talents moreso) and psi potential cannot be bred or genengineered, or else the breeding program of the nobility would be churning them out at a rapid pace.

That's really the only reason why the Zho aren't winning.

Well, that and the Empress Wave, if such a thing exists in your game.
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Re: TL 14 - Collectors

Postby PsiTraveller » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:48 am

Virus ships with Collectors. So much for the Domain of Deneb and the survival of the Regency. No Rift to protect entry into their territory.

Talent chips can provide the Talent to do all this. I do not have this happening in my campaign, despite my name I do not have a psionic heavy campaign.

To go back to the Collectors issue. Having a stellar body provide the particles reduces the effectiveness of the Collector. It opens up questions of which type of stellar bodies, and if there are binary systems that allow faster recharging etc. The question of charging stations, or drop 'tank' capacitors powering Jump drives is also still a possibility.

Is this exotic energy useful for other purposes? Can these Collectors power weapons, stations, equipment? Could a Collector array capture a lot of exotic particles in a shorter time, like a larger solar array captures more electricity?

Imagine a large array close to the Sun capturing all the exotic particles and charging capacitors. These batteries are then transferred to waiting ships to power them Jump by Jump across a gap.

This develops an entirely new military logistical system, complete with targets to be protected from sabotage and attack. Lots of new adventures. Same logic applies to a Megacorporation freighter charging station.

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