Defining time

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hiro

Defining time

Postby hiro » Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:35 pm

There are numerous references to days, weeks, months and years in the 2nd ed.

I can't find a definition of how long each of these are. I'm guessing that we're using the Terran norm but there isn't a norm for the number of days in a Terran month (assuming the Gregorian calendar) for those all important maintenance and mortgage calls.

The following makes sense to me:

Seconds, minutes and hours unchanged, we all know what they are.

24 hours in a day
7 days in a week
28 days in a month
4 weeks in a month
364 days in a year
52 weeks in a year
13 months in a year

You'd need to tweak the maintenance and mortgage numbers to fit the 13 months.

It's nit picking, I know, I'm sorry.
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Re: Defining time

Postby -Daniel- » Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:58 pm

hiro wrote:It's nit picking, I know, I'm sorry.
I would not feel sorry. It is an interesting part of our existence. How we measure time and the passing of it. It is worth discussing even if it ends up being something we use in our house rules. 8)

hiro wrote: There are numerous references to days, weeks, months and years in the 2nd ed.

I can't find a definition of how long each of these are. I'm guessing that we're using the Terran norm but there isn't a norm for the number of days in a Terran month (assuming the Gregorian calendar) for those all important maintenance and mortgage calls.

The following makes sense to me:

Seconds, minutes and hours unchanged, we all know what they are.
Might be worth just adding minutes and hours to the list, even if unchanged, just to be clear.

hiro wrote: 24 hours in a day
7 days in a week
28 days in a month
4 weeks in a month
364 days in a year
52 weeks in a year
13 months in a year

You'd need to tweak the maintenance and mortgage numbers to fit the 13 months.
I guess this would beg the question why use the Terran system as the standard. Why not a 5 day week or 8 day week? why not a 25 day month or 32 day month? You get my point.

Not saying one way is better over another, just thinking out loud.

For example, what if we went with:
5 days in a week
30 days in a month
6 weeks in a month
360 days in a year
72 weeks in a year
12 months in a year


Also I wonder if there could be a standard "ship board" system and each planet has their own based on the system they are in. Then the mortgage is due based on the ship standard time.

Could sort of be like "civilian" clocks vs "military" clocks, more than one standard that applies to particular situations.

Like I said, interesting. But I bet to keep it simple the closer we are to real time measurements the better.
hiro

Re: Defining time

Postby hiro » Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:12 pm

Keeping as close to our current western point of reference is to make the gaming experience simpler.

Yes, we could change the days in a week, hours in a day but I prefer to keep the gaming simpler and not forcing my players to have to work out how many days I mean when I tell them their training for 1 week in jump was a success.

In game, I think for people who spend the majority of their lives in space, time would be organised around the biological norm for their species. On Earth we've evolved with our planets rhythms, I think I read somewhere that left in a dark room we humans start working to a 25 hour day but I may be making that up. As you start living on a planet with a different cycle to that your species evolved for may have repercussions but that is probably more detail than most people want to think about, myself included. Most Travellers by nature, don't spend enough time on any one world or place for this to be an issue.

For the bank to be happy (hahahahahahaha) I am sure they would tell you exactly when each payment was due, describing it as every month or 28 days or however, it's just a mechanic for the game.
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Re: Defining time

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:41 pm

If you use time periods that other races use, you end up confusing the players is all. If a player is in-character as an Aslan, and knows all the time measurements and units for that race's culture, I think it's pretty cool. But no one else would be down with it.

I just tell players how long a day is somewhere. They don't care about years or months. That info they can look up. And guess what, they never do. Planetary data is accessed from every computer. But since there is no rule written to do that, it don't get done. A role-player will do stuff on their own like that. A new player though, they just get told where the star is so they know it's daylight or not.

The whole mortgage thing... I'd be shocked if anyone paid off their 40 years of payments, while aging 40 years. And what bank did they go through? And how did their account activity match up everywhere they went (unless they stayed in the same system for 40 years)? And how did they do their payments? 40 years of hand-waving monthly fees is what they did. There's more rules in the game for missing payments than making them for a reason, anyway.
Last edited by ShawnDriscoll on Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Defining time

Postby -Daniel- » Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:43 pm

hiro wrote:Keeping as close to our current western point of reference is to make the gaming experience simpler.
Oh I quite agree. I think the core game should just assume a Terran standard. I just happen to have done other calendar for some of my Fantasy games so I admit to being interested to see what other systems people might have come up with.

In the end, I agree with Shawn, we hand wave the system of mortgage payments and move on with the game.
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Re: Defining time

Postby haveahappy » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:52 am

Why not also make it clear in the rules though? Something noting that payment schedules assume an earth-based calendar, to be adjusted on a setting by setting basis, would do just fine.

Once it's made clear, there's no reason that people who wish to hand-wave mortgages and the payment schedule cannot continue to do so.
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Re: Defining time

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:12 am

There should be rules that say, mortgage lending leases, etc. are subject to local planet laws and bank processing procedures, limit one per customer, while supplies last, valid flyer's license id required for proof upon vehicle receipt, void where restrictions apply.

Actually, I'd rather not have rules for all that.
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Re: Defining time

Postby Reynard » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:09 pm

"I guess this would beg the question why use the Terran system as the standard. Why not a 5 day week or 8 day week? why not a 25 day month or 32 day month? You get my point."

I'm sure every representative on the committee for a standard Imperial calendar and time system at some point said their planet's date and time were the best choice and I'm sure a few eggheads wanted a decimal system again based on their system (or the pulse of a hydrogen atom). As I posted in another thread, the ruling powers of the about to go official Imperium still had recent and strong historical ties with Mother Earth. In the end, it seemed the majority didn't balk making the homeworld the standard. Tradition won.
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Re: Defining time

Postby -Daniel- » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:52 pm

Reynard wrote: I'm sure every representative on the committee for a standard Imperial calendar and time system at some point said their planet's date and time were the best choice and I'm sure a few eggheads wanted a decimal system again based on their system (or the pulse of a hydrogen atom). As I posted in another thread, the ruling powers of the about to go official Imperium still had recent and strong historical ties with Mother Earth. In the end, it seemed the majority didn't balk making the homeworld the standard. Tradition won.
Sounds as good a back story as any. :mrgreen:
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Re: Defining time

Postby Reynard » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:50 pm

That's pretty much what has been canon from other editions with a little bit of detail speculation from me. Check under the Traveller forum under the topic "OK, a potential grognard hate fest awaits with this question" for my source citings.

I'm sure it was originally done to simplify dating and time in the game without creating a cryptic 'stardate' system. It gives satisfying historic flavor to a familiar standard.
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Re: Defining time

Postby CosmicGamer » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:58 pm

Bringing in some of the discussion from over in another thread... The issue was mostly the difference between an assumed (because none is given) 12 month calendar system in the core rules vs the Imperial calendar from current, and likely 2nd ed rules? Thus perhaps some official clarity in what the core rules months are would be appreciated.
For the 3I, outside the core book the mongoose books define the 3I setting Imperium as using:

A 365 day year.
Dates use a day and year reference only.
A week is seven days. The days of the week are "named Oneday, Twoday and so forth"
A month is 28 days.
Months are used to refer to lengths of time but rarely to establish dates.

So my interpretation is that the year is not broken into specific months like April, May, and so on. For mortgages, a payment is due every 28 days for 40 years.
I don't think anything in the mortgage rules state how many payments there are in a year. The system some have come up with for 13 months in a year and a one day holiday fits nicely.
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Re: Defining time

Postby haveahappy » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:24 pm

The number of payments that are made over a mortgage indicate a 12 month year - which is fine when you assume a "terran"/gregorian calendar, as the core rules perhaps should.

So perhaps it is the 3I fluff that needs updating, rather than the core rules?
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Re: Defining time

Postby CosmicGamer » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:05 pm

haveahappy wrote:So perhaps it is the 3I fluff that needs updating, rather than the core rules?
True, i think people will make the assumption of a "terran/gregorian calendar" without any additional clarification and such does work fine.

The confusion regarding the 3I calendar and how to handle the difference between 12 vs 13 months, mortgage calculations, and other monthly issues could be addressed within that setting.
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Re: Defining time

Postby Reynard » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:02 am

Here's one. The only people and institutions that actually use the month designation are financial primarily for a convenient means of payment schedule within the Imperial year. The reason they use only twelve rather than thirteen is an old superstition lost to the centuries making a thirteenth payment of debt bad luck. The thirteenth moth is considered a debtor's holiday.
hiro

Re: Defining time

Postby hiro » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:09 am

Wait a mo!

A bank, be nice?

No way!!!

:mrgreen:

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