Aiming and auto fire

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Samcollins
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Aiming and auto fire

Postby Samcollins » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:00 pm

I believe aiming and auto fire do not mix well. Auto fire involves multiple attacks sometimes at multiple targets within 6 meters. Or, do the rules suggest that only first attack would get the aim bonus? Please clarify.
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:17 pm

The rules already say you cannot use Full Auto with the Scope trait. I think it is reasonble to say that it cannot be used with Full Auto.

Alternately, it can only be used for the FIRST attack. All other attacks from the Full Auto do not gain that bonus.
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Samcollins
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby Samcollins » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:28 pm

I think it would be best to aid no aiming bonuses when using full auto. Seems cleaner. That's what I would suggest. Aiming bonuses with burst fire should still be ok
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby MongooseMatt » Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:12 am

Samcollins wrote:I think it would be best to aid no aiming bonuses when using full auto. Seems cleaner. That's what I would suggest. Aiming bonuses with burst fire should still be ok
I would be happy with this - any violent protests against?
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:57 am

msprange wrote:
Samcollins wrote:I think it would be best to aid no aiming bonuses when using full auto. Seems cleaner. That's what I would suggest. Aiming bonuses with burst fire should still be ok
I would be happy with this - any violent protests against?
Not violent, but shouldn't it be possible to aim carefully and then unleash full auto instead of a single shot? The first few shots (I.e the first attack, rules-wise) would hit more or less where the shooter aims, accurately and all, but soon the bullets will spread too much (2nd and possible further attack do not get aiming bonus).

If aiming bonus for burst is in, then it should be there for the first attack of a full autofire too, IMHO.
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby Samcollins » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:47 pm

Annotars idea is fine too. I'm running it as no aim bonus to auto because it's a nice clean rule, and in the spirit of "spray n' pray".
I do like that recoil penalties have been removed.
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby -Daniel- » Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:00 pm

Annatar Giftbringer wrote: Not violent, but shouldn't it be possible to aim carefully and then unleash full auto instead of a single shot? The first few shots (I.e the first attack, rules-wise) would hit more or less where the shooter aims, accurately and all, but soon the bullets will spread too much (2nd and possible further attack do not get aiming bonus).

If aiming bonus for burst is in, then it should be there for the first attack of a full autofire too, IMHO.
I get the "realistic" feel this suggestion is going for, but this is a great example of how one situation should not add a level of complexity to the game. Overall use of full auto is to fill an area with fire not careful aim hyped up. So to keep the game cleaner I think going with Burst can aim but Full Auto is just full auto makes a lot more sense.
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:05 pm

Agreed.

I think if a Traveller wants to say that they are taking careful aim before using Autofire, as the Referee, I might give them a Boon for that first to hit roll.

That keeps the rules simple and lets the Referee control the specific situations.

Honestly, I haven't played in many games where a Traveller tried to use the Aim option with Full Auto.
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:11 pm

A boon for he first attack would work too, yes.

When I think more about it, I realize that I mostly think of "FPS distances" when imagining combat... Perhaps there should even became kind of difference between close combat (up to 10-15 m) and long range, akin to in space combat? Perhaps too fiddly, just a thought...

I mean, at short range more bullets should hit where it hurts, so both autofire and bursts could have different effect compared to against a target 50 or even 100 meters away...

Something along the lines of "using autofire at up to 12 m distance halves the ammo requirements, and bursts double their bonus damage"...

EDIT: or burst/full auto could yield additional to hit-bonus at short range, beyond the standard +1 DM. Is +1 per attack/auto rating too much? A weapon with auto 4 (which is to b changed to auto 2 if I'm not mistaken) would get +3 to hit while bursting at short range
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby Nerhesi » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:42 pm

Keep it simple - no bonus for auto-fire. There has to be some benefit for single shots.. They can still use sighting aids apparently but no aim.
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby Melbourne Accords » Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:36 am

Our groups don't combine the aim bonus with full autofire.
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby Infojunky » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:35 pm

So, none of y'all have ever walked a long burst onto target then?

Y'all know both Autofire and it's younger sibling Burst fire where invented to increase the likelihood of a Hit.

I like the rules in 1st edition, but dropped the whole limited to skill-1 bs, in that it was contrary to actually how things worked.

Also If Burst fire give extra damage why doesn't autofire? (that never made sense in Game logic either)
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby -Daniel- » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:17 pm

Infojunky wrote: So, none of y'all have ever walked a long burst onto target then?
But does that not use up some of the "rounds" in that autofire thus lowering the chance to hit other targets?

Infojunky wrote: Y'all know both Autofire and it's younger sibling Burst fire where invented to increase the likelihood of a Hit.
Really? I thought Autofire was invented to allow better area saturation. I also thought that bursts were invented when they realized how many rounds were being burned vs targets hit. Thus the "burst" was created to allow more than one round heading toward a target while maintaining greater control of the weapon. I never new Autofire was invented to increase target hit rates. Interesting what I learn on this site. Too bad Autofire failed in its original task then.
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby Infojunky » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:37 pm

-Daniel- wrote:
Infojunky wrote: So, none of y'all have ever walked a long burst onto target then?
But does that not use up some of the "rounds" in that autofire thus lowering the chance to hit other targets?
Multiple Targets?!? When walking fire onto a target? doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of walking fire onto target? Now if your target is a squad of infantry....

-Daniel- wrote:
Infojunky wrote: Y'all know both Autofire and it's younger sibling Burst fire where invented to increase the likelihood of a Hit.
Really? I thought Autofire was invented to allow better area saturation.
Yes.... See you get it....
-Daniel- wrote:I also thought that bursts were invented when they realized how many rounds were being burned vs targets hit. Thus the "burst" was created to allow more than one round heading toward a target while maintaining greater control of the weapon.
Yep. As it was explained to me when the Marines got their new rifles, we where still using m-14s at that point....
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby -Daniel- » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:51 pm

Infojunky wrote:
-Daniel- wrote:
Infojunky wrote: So, none of y'all have ever walked a long burst onto target then?
But does that not use up some of the "rounds" in that autofire thus lowering the chance to hit other targets?
Multiple Targets?!? When walking fire onto a target? doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of walking fire onto target? Now if your target is a squad of infantry....
Ok, maybe I am misunderstanding, are you not saying Autofire should get additional to hit, to damage, and still keep the multi target capability?

Or are you saying I need to pick on or the other when I use auto fire? So if I want to keep in on a single target than I should get additional damage and to hit but if I use the Autofire rule to target three people, it stays as is?

I have the feeling I might be misunderstanding what you are asking for.
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby Infojunky » Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:38 am

-Daniel- wrote:
Or are you saying I need to pick on or the other when I use auto fire? So if I want to keep in on a single target than I should get additional damage and to hit but if I use the Autofire rule to target three people, it stays as is?

I have the feeling I might be misunderstanding what you are asking for.
1st a Mea Culpa, this wasn't a good morning for me, everyone was wandering through my office and want a piece of me while I am cruising and responding to posts, thus they are crasser and more fragmentary than intended....

What I was trying to say is that I prefer the 1st edition Auto-fire rules as a dice pool, thus various auto-fire modes can be used without express different mechanics. Case in point Walking fire onto a target, the best dice are used for that hit. I could never understand nor used the skill level one limit. Though I have not worked out a satisfying suppression fire mechanic that wasn't a direct rip off of another game (Using the one from Savage worlds kinda). Note I do limit aiming on Full-Auto shots though....

Further more the Burst-fir mechanism is kinda backwards in my opinion as well as fragmentary, in that a burst adds damage only, unless it is a 3 round burst where it adds a +1 to-hit. My current fix for this Burst fire gets to ad a Boon Die, and with such it works like the Auto-fire dice pool. And allow aiming...

As for extra damage, I figure that anything that increases your chance to hit will also increase the effect of that roll, thus adding to damage as well....
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby -Daniel- » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:28 am

Infojunky wrote: 1st a Mea Culpa, this wasn't a good morning for me, everyone was wandering through my office and want a piece of me while I am cruising and responding to posts, thus they are crasser and more fragmentary than intended....
It's all good. :mrgreen:

Infojunky wrote: What I was trying to say is that I prefer the 1st edition Auto-fire rules as a dice pool, thus various auto-fire modes can be used without express different mechanics.
I understand. The dice pool was a nice way to deal with the situation. And I agree, it allowed the use on the core mechanic regardless of what setting I used.

Infojunky wrote: Though I have not worked out a satisfying suppression fire mechanic that wasn't a direct rip off of another game (Using the one from Savage worlds kinda). ...
For me, suppression is one of those things that I see players ignore all the time. It is a normal human response to a heavy stream of bullets flying over head to hunker down, not stand up to return fire. 8)
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Re: Aiming and auto fire

Postby theodis » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:43 pm

Infojunky wrote:So, none of y'all have ever walked a long burst onto target then?

Y'all know both Autofire and it's younger sibling Burst fire where invented to increase the likelihood of a Hit.
Actually, no.

Burst was invented to damage an already acquired target more.

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