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Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:11 pm
by phavoc
wbnc wrote:Traveler is good in some ways, it leaves a lot fo the detail tot he REF and plaeyrs to custom tune to their campaign...but sometimes I really wish I had a bit more crunch to the system...usually if I look at a player and tell him..umm that wont work the way you think it does...it's enough. But when a person goes all "but the rules don't say that..it gets tricky..fortunately not many people I game with are that hard to reign in.

I[ve found ways to handle the lack of hard coded rules. and if you take the bare bones combat system and apply a few basic tweaks you can do a fair job with minutures. by using vectors..and tracking thrust.

I'e played both starlfeet paperwork, and book keeping :D...and renegade legion..they are very good at modeling the tactical movement of a starship... with a bit more paperwork and number tracking. I'd happily use either to supplement a game if I had players familiar with the systems.

also with a bit of work either victory at sea, or call to arms would work as well...if you want a more detailed combat simulator....it takes a bit more work but its fun, and relatively stable.
SFB wasn't too bad as far as bookkeeping, or at least it wasn't terribly onerous for a ship or two per player. I loved the weapon damage rules from RL, would be interesting to dovetail something like that into Trav. I've yet to get to ship combat rules, but I am reading that they are different, which is good. Player ships are relatively small, so damage to them should be more damaging overall than say a larger warship able to absorb damage.

Haven't played V at Sea in a VERY long time! Didn't the original come out in Strategy and Tactics magazine? It got computerized too, though I never played it (did play the SSI Interceptor, still have the 5 1/4 floppies too!)
AndrewW wrote:Don't know yet. It may get revised.
Let's hope so.

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:11 am
by AKAramis
phavoc wrote:
AndrewW wrote:
phavoc wrote:Torps should be minimum 6G so you can't outrun them.
Who said you can't outrun a 6G torpedo┬┐
Under the old rules the fastest a ship 100 tons or over could go was 6G. Now if that's being change, the speed of the torp needs to be, at a minimum, the max speed of ship. Should be faster in my opinion, just so you can't outrun them (unless it's fired at max range and the ship is running away from it).
The new design sequences in the HG draft go to about 22 G... at sufficiently high TL's. Those TL's don't match other Traveller branded products (current nor past) for that many G's compensated and/or gravitic maneuver drive G's...

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:06 am
by Condottiere
Should be dependent on structural strength, which will cut down on most abuses.

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:59 pm
by phavoc
AKAramis wrote:The new design sequences in the HG draft go to about 22 G... at sufficiently high TL's. Those TL's don't match other Traveller branded products (current nor past) for that many G's compensated and/or gravitic maneuver drive G's...
Changing the specs on a missile depending on the TL is S-M-A-R-T, as it finally gives higher TL missiles more bang (for possibly more bucks). It always seemed rather stupid (but very easy to game with) to have a TL7 missile be the exact equivalent of a TL-15 one.

It's something that's needed to be adjusted for a long time. Now if they just updated the beam weapons to reflect higher output options for differentiation like GURPS did, that would be nice.

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:48 pm
by AKAramis
phavoc wrote:
AKAramis wrote:The new design sequences in the HG draft go to about 22 G... at sufficiently high TL's. Those TL's don't match other Traveller branded products (current nor past) for that many G's compensated and/or gravitic maneuver drive G's...
Changing the specs on a missile depending on the TL is S-M-A-R-T, as it finally gives higher TL missiles more bang (for possibly more bucks). It always seemed rather stupid (but very easy to game with) to have a TL7 missile be the exact equivalent of a TL-15 one.

It's something that's needed to be adjusted for a long time. Now if they just updated the beam weapons to reflect higher output options for differentiation like GURPS did, that would be nice.
No-- the SHIP maneuver drive tables go to 22G, not the missile ones! There isn't a missile design sequence.

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:12 pm
by Nerhesi
AKAramis wrote: The new design sequences in the HG draft go to about 22 G... at sufficiently high TL's. Those TL's don't match other Traveller branded products (current nor past) for that many G's compensated and/or gravitic maneuver drive G's...
I'm sure that will be worked on with the upcoming testing for HG. We'll probably need to ensure to align the TL15 and below levels to traveller cannon - unless there is the creative leeway to suddenly have 9G battleships and so on?

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:38 pm
by phavoc
AKAramis wrote:
phavoc wrote:
AKAramis wrote:The new design sequences in the HG draft go to about 22 G... at sufficiently high TL's. Those TL's don't match other Traveller branded products (current nor past) for that many G's compensated and/or gravitic maneuver drive G's...
Changing the specs on a missile depending on the TL is S-M-A-R-T, as it finally gives higher TL missiles more bang (for possibly more bucks). It always seemed rather stupid (but very easy to game with) to have a TL7 missile be the exact equivalent of a TL-15 one.

It's something that's needed to be adjusted for a long time. Now if they just updated the beam weapons to reflect higher output options for differentiation like GURPS did, that would be nice.
No-- the SHIP maneuver drive tables go to 22G, not the missile ones! There isn't a missile design sequence.
Gee, that kind of does break with all previous editions. And makes the idea of a 5G missile even worse.

And I never said there was a missile design sequence. That's something you interjected. I just said changing SPECS on a missile makes sense. Specs being short for specifications, which stating it has a 5G drive rating is a specification.

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:10 am
by Condottiere
Pournelle and Niven seem to believe that the crew onboard a warship can sustain high acceleration for quite a while, though I'd draw the line at twelve gees (minus six gees compensation).

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:29 pm
by Bense
If it's The Mote in God's Eye you're thinking of, I believe they never go above 4Gs for long durations. Of course, they don't have any kind of artificial gravity compensation like Traveller does.

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:22 pm
by Condottiere
I think when they're chasing the Moties colony ship they hit six gees, but are all going around in lazy boys, or enjoying a dip in the bath.

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:07 pm
by phavoc
Condottiere wrote:Pournelle and Niven seem to believe that the crew onboard a warship can sustain high acceleration for quite a while, though I'd draw the line at twelve gees (minus six gees compensation).
They could do it, but not for long periods (well, long is a relative term). And crew not on duty had to get in their g-bathtubs. On-crew duty had motorized chairs. But it was very punishing on the crew and affected their abilities until they could recover.

Which is very normal to human physiology. Taking that much stress is very hard on the human body. You only need to consult some NASA studies on that to determine high g loads are bad news. Or ask a combat pilot who wears a g-suit and feels like they got out of a fight after coming back from maneuvers with high g-forces (7-8g's if they got permission to stress their planes).

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:38 am
by Condottiere
Rounds are six minutes, so we're really more dealing with sustained gee forces that aren't compensated for.

My personal opinion is that Tee Five got it right with nine gees (three uncompensated), possibly being the maximum commercial acceleration.

What puzzles me why there is a cut off at seventy tonnes.

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:20 pm
by msprange
The missiles in the Core book are the basic model - there are lots of higher performance options in High Guard.

Given that, does anyone have a serious issue with 5G missiles?

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:41 pm
by Annatar Giftbringer
Nope, no issues from me. With that increased damage and their small size, I'm totally ok with 5G, especially since there will be other versions too.

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:45 pm
by Rikki Tikki Traveller
Yes, I have a serious issue with 5G missiles.

In CT, they were 6G missiles. Sure that isn't much of a difference, but a Missile should be as fast as your fastest ship (in CT that was 6G). I LIKED it when you bumped missiles to 10G in MGT1. That made sense to me. Missiles should be faster than ships.

You can still run away and hope to not get hit (subs can do it at long range). HG should have better missiles, but for the "basic" missile, I think it should be either 6G or 10G.

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:46 pm
by phavoc
msprange wrote:The missiles in the Core book are the basic model - there are lots of higher performance options in High Guard.

Given that, does anyone have a serious issue with 5G missiles?
In general even the "civilian" style missiles should be faster than most of your civilian ships. And missiles are kind of tiny things, so their power-to-mass ratio should far exceed most ships. Not to mention if you are in a stern chase they may not catch up all the time.

I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be put back to 10G. I guess the other question would be - what is the advantage of them being ONLY 5G? What was the reason you wanted to drop them back again?

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:05 am
by wbnc
msprange wrote:The missiles in the Core book are the basic model - there are lots of higher performance options in High Guard.

Given that, does anyone have a serious issue with 5G missiles?
At first yeah, but after looking at the damage, and the fact alternates would be available in HG or final versions of the Rules, nope..no problems here.

curious though if anyone has any suggestions for additional weapons, or systems, how should we go about passing them on to you.

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:24 am
by AndrewW
wbnc wrote:curious though if anyone has any suggestions for additional weapons, or systems, how should we go about passing them on to you.
Feel free to post them here in the playtest forums.

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:57 am
by msprange
Indeed - probably best to wait for the CSC though, as there is an _awful_ lot in there!

Re: Missile Thrust

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:29 am
by Annatar Giftbringer
phavoc wrote:
msprange wrote:The missiles in the Core book are the basic model - there are lots of higher performance options in High Guard.

Given that, does anyone have a serious issue with 5G missiles?
In general even the "civilian" style missiles should be faster than most of your civilian ships. And missiles are kind of tiny things, so their power-to-mass ratio should far exceed most ships. Not to mention if you are in a stern chase they may not catch up all the time.

I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be put back to 10G. I guess the other question would be - what is the advantage of them being ONLY 5G? What was the reason you wanted to drop them back again?
A 5G missile is faster than most civilian ships though... Aside from some small craft, the fastest ship in the beta rulebook has a thrust rating of 4, and that's the patrol corvette. Hardly a typical civilian ship.