No Ship Design Process

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Jeff Hopper
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No Ship Design Process

Postby Jeff Hopper » Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:03 pm

I understand that spacecraft design has been changed and will be fully detailed in High Guard, but the lack of even a rudimentary ship design sequence in the new Core Rules is a big negative for me. It distances the new rules from its Classic Traveller roots, which was one of the main selling points of the game. One of the greatest appeals of Traveller is the fact that it is a toolkit allowing people to create much of their own material - the exclusion of one of the most used toolkits by enthusiasts from the Core Rules is a detriment to the book's commercial viability.
Kaelic
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby Kaelic » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:24 am

Jeff Hopper wrote:I understand that spacecraft design has been changed and will be fully detailed in High Guard, but the lack of even a rudimentary ship design sequence in the new Core Rules is a big negative for me.
I can't speak for Mongoose, but my understanding was that Main Rulebook, CSC and High Guard were considered "Core Rules" and will be released at the same time. Much in the way D&D has Player Handbook, Monster Manual and DM Manual.

I suppose they could all be in the same book, and the book be more expensive, but is it a huge difference in the end if it all shakes out the same?

It would actually be cool if they did an optional Mega book with all Core rules in one, similar to Shadowrun 5th. It's monstrous, but I'd totally buy that hardback.
ShawnDriscoll
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:35 am

Classic Traveller came in 3 books. Mongoose 2nd will be at least 4 books.
hdan
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby hdan » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:59 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:Classic Traveller came in 3 books.
To be fair, that was more a factor of GDW's printing capabilities than anything else, and as The Traveller Book showed, you can quite comfortably fit those 3 books and some extras into a book about the same size as the original Mongoose Traveller book. :)
/hdan
ShawnDriscoll
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:06 am

hdan wrote:
ShawnDriscoll wrote:Classic Traveller came in 3 books.
To be fair, that was more a factor of GDW's printing capabilities than anything else, and as The Traveller Book showed, you can quite comfortably fit those 3 books and some extras into a book about the same size as the original Mongoose Traveller book. :)
Let's hope Mongoose publishes an Atlas Shrugged version of the game. Lord of the Rings is still in 3 separate books.
Ifandbut
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby Ifandbut » Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:00 am

Kaelic wrote:
Jeff Hopper wrote:I understand that spacecraft design has been changed and will be fully detailed in High Guard, but the lack of even a rudimentary ship design sequence in the new Core Rules is a big negative for me.
I can't speak for Mongoose, but my understanding was that Main Rulebook, CSC and High Guard were considered "Core Rules" and will be released at the same time. Much in the way D&D has Player Handbook, Monster Manual and DM Manual.
Except for D&D 5e the Monster Manual was released a month after the PHB and the DMG was released four months after the PHB.

Star ships in Traveller (for me at least) are just as important as the characters themselves. I really hope High Guard is released at the same time as the core book. Without ships it feels like Traveller would be only half a system.
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby -Daniel- » Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:33 am

Ifandbut wrote: Star ships in Traveller (for me at least) are just as important as the characters themselves. I really hope High Guard is released at the same time as the core book. Without ships it feels like Traveller would be only half a system.
I think it is a little over stated that if the core rule book only has sample ships it is somehow lacking ships. They are right there in the sample ships section. The ship creation rules are important for many people, I would never say otherwise. But the fact is, to play the core game one does not need the ship design rules just to play the game as long as completed ships are provided, and they are. I see no issue with having the design rules shift all into High Guard.

My .02 8)
ShawnDriscoll
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:40 am

Mongoose wants to use the same ship building rules for the entire 2nd edition line. The trick was which book to put them in. The corebook will need to lose something for the ship rules to fit in it. People like building the big ships, so maybe the entire ship building rules should be in another book that has room for them, like High Guard.

http://www.rpgsuite.com is working on ship building software. Maybe that will be more worth it to have?
Guest

Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby Guest » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:30 am

The three book(let) format has always been considered a legacy from D&D. It did simplify looking up references.

As regards ship building, having it spread it spread all over the place and with three different processes made it needlessly complex and at times contradictory. Sorry, four different processes. Five if you include vehicles with grav modules.
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby DickNervous » Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:38 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:Mongoose wants to use the same ship building rules for the entire 2nd edition line. The trick was which book to put them in. The corebook will need to lose something for the ship rules to fit in it. People like building the big ships, so maybe the entire ship building rules should be in another book that has room for them, like High Guard.

http://www.rpgsuite.com is working on ship building software. Maybe that will be more worth it to have?
Since you mentioned RPGSuite, do you know if the applications they are making will be available to those of us playtesting so that we can test them as well?
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ShawnDriscoll
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:52 am

I'm not involved at all with that company. I just know what their YouTube video has shown.
Jeff Hopper
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby Jeff Hopper » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:45 am

Kaelic wrote:
Jeff Hopper wrote:I understand that spacecraft design has been changed and will be fully detailed in High Guard, but the lack of even a rudimentary ship design sequence in the new Core Rules is a big negative for me.
I can't speak for Mongoose, but my understanding was that Main Rulebook, CSC and High Guard were considered "Core Rules" and will be released at the same time. Much in the way D&D has Player Handbook, Monster Manual and DM Manual.

I suppose they could all be in the same book, and the book be more expensive, but is it a huge difference in the end if it all shakes out the same?
Yes, it can make a huge difference.

One of Traveller's biggest selling points is that you have all of the necessary toolkits in one book to run a game and campaign for years. You do not have to spend $40-$50 each for three books just to get a complete game system. This is one of the strengths of Mongoose Traveller 1.0, and Classic Traveller in general.
Kaelic wrote:It would actually be cool if they did an optional Mega book with all Core rules in one, similar to Shadowrun 5th. It's monstrous, but I'd totally buy that hardback.
That would be nice, but as I watch the binding on my Pathfinder Core Rules disintegrate, consideration should be placed on the maximum page count for the rulebook.
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby phavoc » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:34 pm

I'm not opposed to having a very robust starship design book, with the core rulebook having basic items that you might pay to retrofit an existing ship. Some are more than happy to use a handful of stock ships for their play. Splitting along those lines makes sense and is about as fair of a balance as you can expect to find. Just so long as there are enough stock ships to have some variety.
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby AKAramis » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:59 pm

Kaelic wrote:
Jeff Hopper wrote:I understand that spacecraft design has been changed and will be fully detailed in High Guard, but the lack of even a rudimentary ship design sequence in the new Core Rules is a big negative for me.
I can't speak for Mongoose, but my understanding was that Main Rulebook, CSC and High Guard were considered "Core Rules" and will be released at the same time. Much in the way D&D has Player Handbook, Monster Manual and DM Manual.
Matthew posted on COTI that they will be released 1 per month over a three month period.

Ship design has always been a core concept in Traveller - with the exception of TNE, it's always been in the core rules. In TNE, the deluxe box included the core and FF&S, so even there, it was in the boxed core rules.

So, one of the core elements of the Traveller feel is going to be delayed at least a month.

Meanwhile, the D&D comparison... The PHB includes all the elements core to the game, including a selection of monsters. The DMG is really not needed to run a good and successful 5E game. (The encounter balance system helps, and the magic items are cool...) The MM includes nothing essential to the game, either. So really, 5E is one core rulebook.
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DickTurpin
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby DickTurpin » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:50 pm

Did they at least include the cost and tonnage requirements for weapons? I do not recall seeing them anywhere. Many ships are listed with empty hardpoints and the players are going to want to arm them. Upgrades to sensors, computers, and software are also common.

New players might not feel the need to upgrade their ships right away, but established players certainly will!

EDIT: Never mind, I found them on pgs. 157-158.
iwakun
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby iwakun » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:23 pm

Just my two cents as a new player, I completely agree with the decision to move ship creation to a separate book. Reading through the 1ed, I found that section to be really overwhelming.
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby nawara » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:37 pm

I'm also fine with moving ship creation to High Guard. If there's room for more content somewhere, I'd prefer to see either 1.) the rest of the core alien species, or 2.) the return of the of sample NPCs.
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby Bense » Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:38 pm

If the intent is to release all three books as a "core set" that are interdependent then it would seem to me to make more sense for the "core" book itself to have NO starships - put all of those in High Guard and keep the core book as the player book with more space for rules and character careers. Same story for the gear book - if you're going to have a dedicated book then put it all in there. As it is we're going to have (at least) two books with starships in them (Core and High Guard), two books with gear in them (Core and Catalog), and presumably two books with animals in them when the new animal encounters book comes out. You're going to have to flip between books to find what you want. Or they could reprint the ships, gear, and animals, in which case you'll be paying for the same material 3 times.
In the D&D core set ALL the monsters are in the monster manual, ALL the magic items are in the DMG, etc. It gets more complicated as supplements are added, but the basic model is there.

Ship design was in the original Traveller set and always has been in the core books of the best editions of Traveller (as has been pointed out, even TNE included it in its deluxe set). Loosing it from the core book makes me ask "is it really a core book without this basic tool?" No doubt there are good arguments for not including it, but for a grognard like myself it's a little disappointing to see it missing.
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby allanimal » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:48 pm

DickTurpin wrote:Upgrades to sensors, computers, and software are also common.

New players might not feel the need to upgrade their ships right away, but established players certainly will!
Also: how much cost & tonnage to upgrade a stateroom/part of cargo bay into a sickbay?
Jeff Hopper
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Re: No Ship Design Process

Postby Jeff Hopper » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:24 pm

ShawnDriscoll wrote:Classic Traveller came in 3 books. Mongoose 2nd will be at least 4 books.
Mongoose Traveller 1.0 came in a single book that had everything you needed.

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