[House Rule] Life support

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
F33D
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby F33D » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:34 pm

wbnc wrote:one of the biggest problems with the funkiness of a ship is the fact that people sweat and shed skin. From experience even on small workboats ( 90ft ) you get a layer of crud anywhere you cant get to and scrub.
Yep. That's why cleaning in a vacuum and grav manipulation handles it. Rip out the beds and carpets, vacuum out the airtight compartments. Unlike current day ships, spaceships have discreet all metal airtight spaces that are cleanable. Makes sens after thousands of years operating ships that last hundreds of years.
wbnc
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby wbnc » Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:47 am

ore than once we scrubbed for days, trying to pull out every gear and fittings we could. the result was a slightly less than nausea inducing stench when we opened the engine room after a day of cooking it in the hot sun....

Cleaning solvents have yet to be invented that can deal with a combination of hydraulic fluid, stale seawater, human sweat and accumulated dust grit, and dead skin...mixed liberally with diesel fuel, and baked 110 degrees and 110 percent humidity in the gulf sun for a week.

I am sure that air fresheners, and scrubbing bits that can fit into tight confines would be a big seller at any starport. Being able to pull out all the fittings and expose the area to hard vaccum an near absolute zero would definitely help....or parking the ship on a planet with a lot of chlorine in the air and opening the doors.

Hmmm now there is something I need to add to the central supply catalog..the sani-swarm (tm). a swarm of grasshopper sized bots that can get into the behind the bulkhead spaces and scrub it till it's showroom fresh.
F33D
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby F33D » Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:53 am

wbnc wrote:ore than once we scrubbed for days, trying to pull out every gear and fittings we could. the result was a slightly less than nausea inducing stench when we opened the engine room after a day of cooking it in the hot sun....

Cleaning solvents have yet to be invented that can deal with a combination of hydraulic fluid, stale seawater, human sweat and accumulated dust grit, and dead skin...mixed liberally with diesel fuel, and baked 110 degrees and 110 percent humidity in the gulf sun for a week.

I am sure that air fresheners, and scrubbing bits that can fit into tight confines would be a big seller at any starport. Being able to pull out all the fittings and expose the area to hard vaccum an near absolute zero would definitely help....or parking the ship on a planet with a lot of chlorine in the air and opening the doors.

Hmmm now there is something I need to add to the central supply catalog..the sani-swarm (tm). a swarm of grasshopper sized bots that can get into the behind the bulkhead spaces and scrub it till it's showroom fresh.

Organic crap really gets rank. Mix with water, fuel and other junk and it is all over. One Trav supplement or add-on I saw years ago had micro cleaning bots that swarmed at night in the ship and carried all detritus to a waste drain thingy.


A space ship you can scrub the O2 from the atmosphere and then heat the nitrogen to high temp to kill off/decompose to inorganic elements then evacuate.
Ishmael
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby Ishmael » Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:33 am

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/sc ... ay_locad3/

OTU example for a stinky spaceship....
"The major fault of the type S scout/courier is its air system. Although
of respectable quality for life support, it begins to smell after about
three weeks of use. Thereafter, the smell becomes increasingly obnoxious,
and most crew members find the smell intolerable after six weeks. The
problem can be corrected by flushing the air system, which operation costs
Cr1,000 for parts and components. Temporary respite may be obtained (for
about a week) by replacing the system's air filters (at Cr200). Both these
processes also require a plentiful supply of breathable air. Instead, the
entire air system may be replaced with a better model; it costs Cr70,000 and
requires sacrificing one ton of cargo space."

no reason to think this sort of thing can't happen to other ships as well, especially from lower tech worlds.
F33D
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby F33D » Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:35 am

Ishmael wrote: OTU example for a stinky spaceship....
"The major fault of the type S scout/courier is its air system. Although
of respectable quality for life support
Yes, this example was always funny, if not completely illogical. (along with Cr2,000/month L.S. cost for uninhabited cabins) Great comedy fluff. Marc spec'ed L.S. systems at <TL 6 for star ships.

I think that Marc was surprised that many didn't take it as a joke.
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby Ishmael » Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:55 am

F33D wrote:Yes, this example was always funny, if not completely illogical.
why illogical considering that it has been true of closed-cycle ( subs and spaceships) conditions up to the present?

"Another bad thing about living aboard the ISS is that every time someone farts or the like, that air has nowhere to go. Also, given the tight quarters and limited bathing facilities, body odor tends to be rampant. There are filters that try to clean up the smelly air, but astronauts frequently report that the first thing you notice when opening the air lock to the ISS is the bad smell."

and considering all the effort that NASA goes through just to combat this problem?
http://news.discovery.com/space/an-end- ... 140717.htm
http://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/spac ... ine-space/

I find it funny that it doesn't cover more ships in Traveller.
It also leads to the idea that crew will do mostly cleaning and preventative maintenance in jump.
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:04 am

Ishmael wrote:
F33D wrote:Yes, this example was always funny, if not completely illogical.
why illogical considering that it has been true of closed-cycle ( subs and spaceships) conditions up to the present?
F33D says that for every Traveller rule. Anyway, the rule states the problem and a possible solution for it. So nothing to metagame about it.
F33D
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby F33D » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:39 am

Ishmael wrote: why illogical considering that it has been true of closed-cycle ( subs and spaceships) conditions up to the present?
Because the the TL 12 Scout ship is WORSE than out TL 7 subs AND, after 5 TL's it hasn't improved? I could eradicate most problems using the power from a fusion PP alone. It is completely illogical to consider that GREATLY increased levels of tech wouldn't be brought to bear.

It would be like asking why is it illogical to assume that the toilet problems homes had at TL 2 would NOT be greatly dealt with by TL 7-8...

If someone wants to play Steam Punk in space, cool. It just doesn't fit into the "Far Future" paradigm.
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby Beastttt » Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:46 am

it is called standardization
pretty much there is a standard set of fittings so everything connects to everything else
it probably started w/ VHS and Blu-ray
once space flight became affordable for anybody, ship builders needed a standard so various parts could be sub-contracted out
so each stateroom can do LS for 2 people is the standard
each part of the ship also has some LS parts in it to help out
But you use the 2 people per stateroom as your guiding factor

CosmicGamer wrote:
F33D wrote:I answered your question I thought.
You propose a centralized life support system.

QUESTION: How is it provided to all the spaces throughout the ship?
F33D wrote:What didn't you understand about the absurdity of adding MILES of ducting to a small ship?
None. But
A) I believe this is the first reference to a "small" ship.
B) I don't know how your flippant responses to the "miles" statement are supposed to be taken - see Question #3 below

As for the whole "miles" thing, I took it as I believe the author meant it. Simply pointing out that an extensive network of life support services would have to be provided throughout the ship from the centralized system.

So, here are the questions

1) The highlighted question above repeated: For your centralized life support system, how is this service supplied to all the spaces throughout the ship? I can easily start getting into more and more detail like is the waste from all the freshers throughout the ship pumped from each fresher to the central system to be treated, does the central system somehow suck it, is it somehow done with grav tech piping, and so on but I wanted to start with what you have thought of.
2) You had a flippant response that referenced ceiling height: How do you feel ceiling height impacts the design of centralized and decentralized life support?
3) The "miles" of ducting is a simple exaggeration that points out the centralized system has possible limitations. Do you envision your centralized system scaling to a certain limit, is it only for "small ships", is there no limit?

I have additional comments about your proposed system I've yet to mention as they are down a different rabbit hole and this was the first hair to be split. Pun intended.
F33D
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby F33D » Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:55 am

Beastttt wrote:it is called standardization
... ship builders needed a standard so various parts could be sub-contracted out
so each stateroom can do LS for 2 people is the standard
each part of the ship also has some LS parts in it to help out
But you use the 2 people per stateroom as your guiding factor
Not really. And for many of the same engineering reasons that ship builders don't do it that way today (per stateroom).

See earlier in thread for more info about why not.
Condottiere
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby Condottiere » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:46 am

There might be an annual Imperium-wide holiday, Vacuuming Day, or maybe just an annual shipboard ceremony.
Ishmael
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby Ishmael » Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:49 pm

F33D wrote:It is completely illogical to consider that GREATLY increased levels of tech wouldn't be brought to bear.

It would be like asking why is it illogical to assume that the toilet problems homes had at TL 2 would NOT be greatly dealt with by TL 7-8...

If someone wants to play Steam Punk in space, cool. It just doesn't fit into the "Far Future" paradigm.
Technology can help mitigate the problems, but they won't solve the problems completely. Technology hasn't solved the 'sick building syndrome' yet, for example.

But if someone wants to play 'technology-and-robots-solve-everything' in space. cool.

btw, flush toilets of some sort have been around since the Indus Valley civilization, also the Palace of Knossos in ancient Crete. Its just that, like in modern times, such were used mostly by the affluent. Tech hasn't solved the 'toilet problem' for 40% of the world's population yet.
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby Ishmael » Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:59 pm

I had the idea that a ship's LS might scale in a way similar to Kleiber's Law. this might give an idea of power usage which could then be used to gauge roughly volume, cost and and mass.

After all, LS and an organism's functions at basal metabolic rates are similar.

It is a power function where energy usage to maintain a specific environment for cells inside an organism is proportional to 3/4 power of mass, which, assuming a constant density, is volume....like how Trav does things for ships.
Theoretical models presented by Geoffrey West, Brian Enquist, and James Brown,[6] purport to show how the ¾ observation can emerge from the constraint of how resources are distributed through hierarchical branching networks.

"How resources are distributed through hierarchical branching networks" pretty much describes the base functions of LS; resource distribution.
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby Condottiere » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:19 pm

Image
F33D
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby F33D » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:30 am

Ishmael wrote:I had the idea that a ship's LS might scale in a way similar to Kleiber's Law.
No. This isn't a biological construct.
F33D
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby F33D » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:31 am

Ishmael wrote: Technology can help mitigate the problems, but they won't solve the problems completely.
Then explain EXACTLY which problem it wouldn't solve... The problems are very simple so, you should be able to answer this question if you have any idea of what you speak.

For instance. We almost have 100% cleanable CNTs for all type of water purification and desalinization. What would be considered by most people as a "miracle" but is just current day science.

But if you want to pretend that technology decreases as you go up in TL, have at it. :lol: :lol:

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