The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

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AnotherDilbert
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The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:10 am

Please tell me why this is not RAW:

A light fighter with several fixed mounts of four HMGs (HG, p32).

The HMGs fires Nuclear Ammo and does 6DD damage, or 6D in Space Scale (CSC, p141; HG, p157).

Each mount of four HMG take 1 Dt and fire together for 6D+18 damage (Core, p158).

Since the HMG has the trait Auto 3 we can fire Full Auto for three attacks per mount.

With five mounts we can attack 15 times per round for 6D+18 damage.

The HMGs have tech advantage Long Range, taking them to Close range.


Image


I believe we have discussed nuclear HMGs before; and mostly called it RAW, but unreasonable.
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby msprange » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:24 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:10 am

I believe we have discussed nuclear HMGs before; and mostly called it RAW, but unreasonable.
Kind of depends on your setting. Not for the Third Imperium, but it could make for an interesting universe :)
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AnotherDilbert
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:39 am

msprange wrote: Not for the Third Imperium, ...
OK, no nuclear machine guns.

But how about Gauss Cannon with nuclear ammunition? Each cannon takes 1 Dt and does 6D damage with Auto 3.

So with five mounts of one gun each we can attack 15 times for 6D damage?
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby Liodre » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:27 pm

I would interpret the boxed text on pg 138 of the CSC to mean that any weapon with a base damage of less than 1DD can only have a maximum damage of 1DD, regardless of ammo. So, the HMG, 4D base damage, would get to 1DD nuclear. Which means the cost of the nuclear ammo does not seem worth it, unless we have the book values for radiation and blast remain (which doesn't make realistic sense, but for the sake of argument). The crew of an unprotected ship could be irradiated pretty easily with saturation fire.

I think the gauss cannon idea would work per the rules (as its base damage is 1DD), but the main difference would be the cost. The gauss is Cr100,000, compared to the Cr4,500 of the HMG. Converting the ammo to nuclear makes it Cr20,000 per mag (albeit 200 rounds per mag), compared to Cr8,000 per mag for the HMG (Cr16,000 for a comparable ammo load of 200).
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:09 pm

Liodre wrote: I would interpret the boxed text on pg 138 of the CSC to mean that any weapon with a base damage of less than 1DD can only have a maximum damage of 1DD, ...
I don't think so, it was introduced during beta to handle and simplify some edge cases, such as using HEAP ammunition with the Heavy Autocannon, as far as I know. I has 1DD base damage, what should it be after increasing by +1D; 2DD, 1DD+1D, or 11D? With that text box it was simplified to 1DD.

I would say the nuclear ammo is not an increase (+nD) but a substitution (base → 6DD) and not covered by that text box.

Liodre wrote: I think the gauss cannon idea would work per the rules (as its base damage is 1DD), but the main difference would be the cost. The gauss is Cr100,000, ...
Quite, but the cost is still insignificant for spacecraft.
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:29 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:09 pm
I would say the nuclear ammo is not an increase (+nD) but a substitution (base → 6DD) and not covered by that text box.
The Zircon nuclear gun drone from CSC (p.147) agrees with you.
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby baithammer » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:54 am

That would be range, as the heavy machine gun has a long range of under double the listed range so with range increase your looking at about 2.5 km range where most small craft weapons have a range of up to 10 km at close range. ( Would be nasty surprise for an insurgency though.)
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby Sigtrygg » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:32 am

Mass drivers and autocannon firing californium rounds - nuclear rounds in this thread - have been part of Traveller since 1979 LBB4 Mercenary.
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:25 am

Annatar Giftbringer wrote: The Zircon nuclear gun drone from CSC (p.147) agrees with you.
Thank you, that seem to be conclusive, but I do wonder how it got a range of 6 km? Perhaps the TL of the autocannon was used, instead of the range?
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:29 am

baithammer wrote: That would be range, as the heavy machine gun has a long range of under double the listed range so with range increase your looking at about 2.5 km range where most small craft weapons have a range of up to 10 km at close range.
? Sorry, I don't understand?

The HMG has a range of 1 km, or Adjacent in Space Combat terms.

The advantage Long Range increases that by one range band to Close range.
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby baithammer » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:13 am

Vehicle / personal scale weapons use that scales enhancements, not the spaceship ones. ( Which leaves the range enhancement to under twice the listed range for long range.)
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:05 am

baithammer wrote: Vehicle / personal scale weapons use that scales enhancements, not the spaceship ones.
They do? Even when mounted on spacecraft?

What personal scale enhancement system is that?

baithammer wrote: ( Which leaves the range enhancement to under twice the listed range for long range.)
Long range is twice the effective range by default, that is no enhancement?
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby baithammer » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:32 am

Long range is twice the effective range by default, that is no enhancement?
Nope.
Long Range: If a target is beyond the weapon’s Range but
less than twice the Range away, it is at Long Range.
They do? Even when mounted on spacecraft?
Hinted at in HG description for smaller weapons.
It is possible to equip a spacecraft with Ground scale
weaponry. This is usually done on small craft designed to
operate regularly within an atmosphere while engaging
ground targets but any spacecraft can use them.
As the enhancements are done to the weapon itself and not the mounting.
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:20 pm

baithammer wrote:
Long range is twice the effective range by default, that is no enhancement?
Nope.
Long Range: If a target is beyond the weapon’s Range but less than twice the Range away, it is at Long Range.
Yes, quite, Long Range is a rangeband in personal combat as well as space combat. It is not a weapon modification, it has nothing to do with the tech advantage Long Range.

baithammer wrote:
They do? Even when mounted on spacecraft?
Hinted at in HG description for smaller weapons.
It is possible to equip a spacecraft with Ground scale
weaponry. This is usually done on small craft designed to
operate regularly within an atmosphere while engaging
ground targets but any spacecraft can use them.
As the enhancements are done to the weapon itself and not the mounting.
I fail to see that the quoted text hints at anything of the sort. It specifically states that Smaller Weapons can be mounted to any spacecraft.

Since tech advantages applies to "Every component that can be mounted upon a ship..." I have some difficulty to see how Smaller Weapons can be excluded.
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby baithammer » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:17 pm

The point is that ground scale weapons don't change scale so doesn't use the high tech advantages of the ship scale but uses ground scale weapon modifications.
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:44 pm

baithammer wrote: The point is that ground scale weapons don't change scale so doesn't use the high tech advantages of the ship scale but uses ground scale weapon modifications.
If you had bothered to read what I wrote you would hopefully notice that I dispute on the grounds of two points:
  • There is no ground scale modification system.
  • The space scale modification system applies to "Every component that can be mounted upon a ship...", hence Smaller Weapons mounted on spacecraft.
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby baithammer » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:28 am

Note that if an ordinary weapon is mounted upon
a spacecraft, the weapon still uses the ordinary (or
Ground) scale – scale is reflected by the weapon being
used, not what it is mounted upon.
Which counters the argument that there is no ground scale.

As to the second comment, I haven't found anything like what you wrote and the closest statement is the following.
Every component that can be mounted upon a ship has
a minimum Tech Level listed which dictates when it
normally comes available
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Re: The Revenge of "Smaller Weapons"

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:52 am

baithammer wrote: Which counters the argument that there is no ground scale.

As to the second comment, I haven't found anything like what you wrote and the closest statement is the following.
You've truncated the quotes:


Core, p157 wrote:Spacecraft Damage Scale
...

To reflect this, a new scale of damage is used for Spacecraft weapons.

Note that if an ordinary weapon is mounted upon a spacecraft, the weapon still uses the ordinary (or Ground) scale – scale is reflected by the weapon being used, not what it is mounted upon.
This rule is specifically about damage, not range.


HG, p48 wrote: Altering Tech Levels
This is all handled by adjusting the Tech Level, price and tonnage of components while a ship is being designed using the previous chapters. They will also have one or more Advantages or Disadvantages applied to reflect the effect of higher or lower technology.

Every component that can be mounted upon a ship has a minimum Tech Level listed which dictates when it normally comes available. The pulse laser on page 25, for example, is listed as being TL7. In theory prototype lasers can appear at lower Tech Levels, though they will be less capable, and more advanced versions will be available at higher Tech Levels.

When selecting prototype (lower TL) or advanced (higher TL) components, use the prototype/Advanced table to alter its TL, tonnage, and cost, and to determine how many Advantages or Disadvantages it will acquire. Advantages and Disadvantages are then selected from a suitable category in this chapter, or the referee and Travellers can create their own.
This certainly seems to apply to anything mounted to a spacecraft.

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