Gazelle Class Close Escort

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AnotherDilbert
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:34 pm

Without drop tanks it's no Gazelle...

I would question the single missile turret. A salvo of three missiles is easily evaded, dodged, or PDed by a single laser turret. Missiles are best used in large numbers.
Old School
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby Old School » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:48 pm

True. Another thought would be to replace one of the particle barbettes with missiles.

As you might can tell, it really bothers me that in the Treasure Ship adventure the two Gazelles kick ass with missiles they dont have.
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:56 pm

Old School wrote: As you might can tell, it really bothers me that in the Treasure Ship adventure the two Gazelles kick ass with missiles they dont have.
There has long been two versions of the Gazelle:
Image
CT Traders & Gunboats

The lower version (Unicorn) has two laser turrets and two particle barbettes.
The upper version (Gazelle) has two laser turrets and two missile turrets, generally seen as a civilian version.

Any operator can of course switch barbettes or turrets (in the same category of course) as they see fit. Turrets are natural modules.

A Gazelle with two missile barbettes and two missile turrets would launch 16 missiles per round, quite respectable.
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby Old School » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:01 am

Quite expensive, too. Those missiles add up in more ways than one. 16 would likely be decisive in small ship combat.
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:42 am

Old School wrote: Quite expensive, too.
Agreed, but still cheap compared to the ship you destroyed or the ship you would lose if you lost the combat...
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby paltrysum » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:09 pm

Nice redesign, Old School. I hadn't noticed that in "Treasure Ship," they describe the Gazelles as having missile turrets when clearly they do not in High Guard. That would make Arshad and Komino variants of the High Guard versions.

Another thing that really bugs me about the MgT2 version of the ship (and the Subsidized Merchant as well) is the use of docking space for the gig (or launch in the case of the Subby). It should really be a docking clamp.
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby Old School » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:01 am

Thanks.

is there really an advantage to using docking space instead of a docking clamp? You have to add a couple more tons to the ship size you have to fuel, and docking space is expensive. I suppose the hull size might get you an extra hardpoint. I.e. a 380 ship with a docking clamp would only get 3 hardpoints, while a 400 ton ship gets four.
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby baithammer » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:22 am

Ships with clamped sub-ships become unstreamlined and all transfers / repairs require EVA as well as being targetable separate from the main ship.

Docking spaces fully cover the docked ship and allows for access to the docked ship without eva. ( Repairs require eva unless a hangar is available.)
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby paltrysum » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:06 am

I realize that docking spaces are more practical, but the original designs called for attachments to the outside of the ship. Both the Gazelle and the Subby clearly have docking clamps instead of spaces. Yes, it prevents the host ship from being streamlined when the small craft is attached, but isn't that the point of having a gig or a launch? The small craft does the landing for you while the host ship stays in space. If we really want to be faithful to the original design, we should consider that.
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby baithammer » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:47 am

It's about how the clamps are handled.

If you like having to do eva everytime you need to transfer cargo or personel, then the clamps are your ticket. ( With plastic tube between the ships.)

If you want to be able to do the above, while still within your ship and not dedicating full on hangar, than the docking space is a better choice.
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:43 am

baithammer wrote: If you like having to do eva everytime you need to transfer cargo or personel, then the clamps are your ticket. ( With plastic tube between the ships.)
With a bit of careful design we can probably mate airlocks directly as the Subbie and the Gazelle show. Any access to the exterior hull of the craft would need EVA.
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby baithammer » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:17 am

And you end up with the same function as the docking space, with the benefit of not being targetable while in the docking space.
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:19 am

The Gazelle and Subbie artwork clearly shows the small craft carried externally.

Docking Spaces certainly have advantages, but they are more expensive.

Reasonably a Docking Space is designed for a specific craft and can't accept any other craft.

A Docking Clamp can probably carry any reasonable craft (without any direct air lock access).
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:44 am

Let's take an example: A 400 Dt ship with a clamped external craft versus a 420 Dt ship with an internal craft. (Cost is the bold number in the top row, free space is the green number above "dTon".)

Docking Space:
Image

Docking Clamp:
Image


The difference is more pronounced if we add some expensive hull options, armour in this case.

Docking Space:
Image

Docking Clamp:
Image
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby baithammer » Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:42 am

It really comes down to the degree of risk the ship will encounter, with the docking spaces being safer for emergency access due to being within the larger hull with a direct connection between the two vessels.

In order to move between the vessels in a clamp situation a docking tube which is vulnerable to impacts and being cut off. ( Not to mention the docked craft being vulnerable as its exposed on the exterior of the parent ship.)
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby paltrysum » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:31 pm

baithammer wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:47 am
It's about how the clamps are handled.

If you like having to do eva everytime you need to transfer cargo or personel, then the clamps are your ticket. ( With plastic tube between the ships.)

If you want to be able to do the above, while still within your ship and not dedicating full on hangar, than the docking space is a better choice.
Yes, the RAW don't really make it a viable option. The cost is only incrementally lower. But there has to be some reason for the clamps to exist. I like AnotherDilbert's suggestion:
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:19 am
Reasonably a Docking Space is designed for a specific craft and can't accept any other craft.

A Docking Clamp can probably carry any reasonable craft (without any direct air lock access).
"Spacers lead a sedentary life. They live at home, and their home is always with them—their starship, and so is their country—the depths of space."
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:01 pm

paltrysum wrote: The cost is only incrementally lower.
The cost difference is a bit more than incremental. It's perhaps more noticeable if you have more small craft, e.g. a carrier.

E.g. a simple clamp carrier for 100 medium fighters:
Image

Same fighters in Docking Spaces:
Image

Note that we need a bigger ship to make space for the Docking Spaces, leading to a 20% more expensive carrier.
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby baithammer » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:44 pm

There is a reason for clamps, it is for carriers with displacement limitations and little need for maneuver. ( IE. Raiders and pleasure craft.)
Reasonably a Docking Space is designed for a specific craft and can't accept any other craft.
Considering Airlocks are standardized, the space can fit a single craft up to the maximum size of the Docking Space.
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby Condottiere » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:04 pm

Whereas a docking clamp has an access hatch, the attached airlock would be in addition, not inherent.
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Re: Gazelle Class Close Escort

Postby baithammer » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:50 am

Clamps don't provide a hatch, you need to use an airlock on both sides with a docking tube between them. ( Docking tubes are assumed part of the airlock.)

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