WW1: Data Sheets for older ships not in the rules books.

Discuss the Victory at Sea range of naval games.

Moderator: rcbecker1

Teach59
Cub
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:37 am

WW1: Data Sheets for older ships not in the rules books.

Postby Teach59 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:09 am

Hi

There are quite a few ships that, whilst still being "on the books" during WW1 (i.e. in Janes Fighting Ships of WW1), did not feature in any notable engagements, are forgotten, or were demoted to 2nd line duties. Many of these are not in the Age of Dreadnoughts or Far Flung Seas, but would potentially make for an interesting game/scenario and are all in the current NAVWAR 1/3000th range.

I would like to try and make some data sheets for some of these ships, however it is quite possible there are others of you out there who may have done some of this already, so it would be nice to collect them in one place. It may also encourage and help the Mongoose team to release further supplements.

Examples of ships I'd like to see and will start work on are:-
Majestic class pre-dreadnoughts, Royal Navy
Furst Bismark armoured cruiser, German Navy
Panther torpedo gunboat, Austro-Hungarian Navy

There are many more pre-dreadnoughts that could be added, the Royal Navy was a little excessive and could probably fill another book. Plus there is the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1906 which again is another book in itself.
Maybe further down the line we could continue back all the way to 1860, the first Ironclads and turret ships?

I look forward to hearing from folks and thanks in advance :-)

Teach
Last edited by Teach59 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Teach59
Cub
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:37 am

Re: WW1: Data Sheets for older ships not in the rules books.

Postby Teach59 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:29 pm

Here is my brief analysis of how to work out some ship stats:-

Speed = Speed in Knots divided by 4 and rounded UP to the nearest whole number.
E.g. 20kts = 5", 21kts =6", 25kts = 7".

Turn = 3
I can't find anything that does any different number, but the "Agile" trait can beapplied to destroyers and nimble light cruisers.

Target = 6+ for destroyers, small light cruisers (approx. 5000tons or less) and shallow draft monitors. 5+ for almost everything else (with some peculiar exceptions).

Armour = This actually requires a closer examination of the ship, the distribution of armour and the composition. I have used Jane's Fighting Ships of World War 1, ISBN1-85270-378-0 in the past, as it has diagrams showing belt thickness and distribution. However, a good guide is also to compare a ship to it's contemporary's. An interesting piece of data, 12" mild steel = 7.5" Harvey steel = 5.75" Krupp steel!

Damage = the "full load" displacement per 1000 tons multiplied by 2 (Displacement is rounded UP to the nearest 500 tons). The second figure for crippled is 1/3rd of the initial damage value.
E.g. HMS Indefatigable at 22,080tons, rounds up to 22500tons.
So damage is 22500/1000 x 2 = 45

Crew = actual complement divided by 27. Skeleton crew is 1/3rd the "Crew" value.

EXAMPLE:-

HMS Majestic class Pre-Dreadnought

Ships of this class:- HMS Caesar, HMS Hannibal, HMS Illustrious, HMS Jupiter, HMS Magnificent, HMS Majestic, HMS Mars, HMS Prince George, HMS Victorious

Length = 399ft, Speed = 17.5kts, Displacement = 14,900 tons, Crew = 757

Speed = 5" Armour = 4+ Special Traits = Poor Subdivision
Turning = 3 Damage = 30/10 In Service = 1895
Target = 5+ Crew = 28/9

Weapons Range AD DD Arcs Special
A Turret (2x12" L35) 24" 2 1 F,P,S -
X Turret (2x12" L35) 24" 2 1 F,P,S -
Port Secondary Armament (6 x 6") 20" 3 1 L Casemate, Weak
Stbd Secondary Armament (6 x 6") 20" 3 1 R Casemate, Weak
Tertiary Armament (16 x 12pdr) 10" 2 1 - Very Weak
Port Torpedoes (18") 10" 2 (-1) P Slow-Loading
Stbd Torpedoes (18") 10" 2 (-1) S Slow-Loading
Stern Torpedoes (18") 10" 1 (-1) A Slow-Loading

Additional notes on weapons:-
The main 12" guns although only L35 (35 calibre lengths long) as opposed to L40 on the Canopus class are too similar in performance to be different, although I am tempted to lower the range to 22 or 20 due to the lower muzzle velocity.

The secondary armament for the later pre-dreadnoughts appears to be a one for one AD value. E.g. King Edward VII has 5 x 6" on each side, giving 5 AD each side. However the earlier pre-dreadnoughts like Canopus class have 6 x 6" on each side, but only giving 3 AD. The Brandenburg class German pre-dreadnought in FFS has 3 x 4" each side and only 2 AD.
Further examination of other early pre-dreads seems to show a one for one ratio for secondary armament. So are Canopus and Brandenburg oddities or errors?
It could be argued that Majestic and Canopus should have 6 AD each side, but the lower number might take into account the poor layout of the guns with poor arcs due to the casemate arrangement as only 2 x 6" guns can be fired fore or aft.

Tertiary Armament is a bit subjective as it requires a careful examination of the possible fire arcs using deck plans! The number of AD is determined by how many guns could be brought to bare on any one arc rapidly to fend of torpedo boats.


p.s.
OK, when I started this, I thought it would be a lot easier, but is has taken a good 3 hours to work through this far. I think that I'll do future ships with a pen and paper on the sofa, my PC desk has been buried with books!
Hope this acts as a catalyst for others to start though :-)
I also have a better formatted version in MS Word 2007, but cannot attach it at the moment as I'm still a Newbie ;-)
knave1
Cub
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:28 am
Location: Louisiana

Re: WW1: Data Sheets for older ships not in the rules books.

Postby knave1 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:32 pm

This method seems pretty solid. Have you come up with mny ships stats or any changes to this method/equasion/formula since?
Teach59
Cub
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:37 am

Re: WW1: Data Sheets for older ships not in the rules books.

Postby Teach59 » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:16 pm

Hi Knave1

I've been otherwise distracted with moving house and building a new games room for the past 3 years. I had a lot of miniatures to find new homes for.

I had made quite some progress on pen&paper converting ships for France, Italy, USA, Austro-Hungarian Empire, Turkey, China, etc.
The idea was to cover everything built from about 1880 (HMS Devestation) up to VAS AOD, particularly the Russo-Japanese War. I got through 90% of Conways 1860-1905, with help from several re-printed editions of Jane's and the WW1 Jane's for armour distribution. It was an obsession for a while ;-)

I have also included "period specific" rules for the 1904-5 Russo-Japanese war, to take into account the less advanced rangefinders and fire control. Additionally, I have done a similar set of rules adjustment for the 1894 Sino-Japanese war. Mostly shortening ranges and reducing accuracy compared to AOD, but also lower rates of fire for the bigger, older guns.

However, so far I only have the Russians and half the Japanese typed up in MS Word (which I couldn't attach to this forum). I have included ships for both nations that did not take part or were not completed, and also aren't in AOD. I am a very slow typist (eye sight problems, long story), so it has taken quite a while to get typed up this far :-o

If you can work out how to post MS Word documents on here, or want to PM me an email, I'll happily share what I've done so far. They quite possibly need play-testing properly.

:-)
knave1
Cub
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:28 am
Location: Louisiana

Re: WW1: Data Sheets for older ships not in the rules books.

Postby knave1 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:24 am

Sent you a PM about being interested in what you have so far.

I like the idea of period specific rules, especially Russo-Japanese War ones, since I've been reading a book on that war recently.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests