Iron Thunder questions

Discuss the Victory at Sea range of naval games.

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JMoltzer
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Postby JMoltzer » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:41 pm

I have noticed a fair amount of the Union ships are sail driven with no steam engines or paddles propelling them. Is there a particular reason wind direction was left out of the game or was it just assumed everyone would be playing with ships that didn't rely on the wind?

I'm not planing on ever doing Civil War era naval battles, and am personally holding out for the Age of Sail. Just curious if there was anything planed on handling wind direction that we might see latter.
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DM
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Postby DM » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:40 am

If you want rules to cover the effects of wind and movement under sail you could take some pointers from here:

http://www.btinternet.com/~david.manley ... _o_t_R.pdf
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Postby Ray Ray » Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:00 am

JMoltzer wrote:I have noticed a fair amount of the Union ships are sail driven with no steam engines or paddles propelling them. Is there a particular reason wind direction was left out of the game or was it just assumed everyone would be playing with ships that didn't rely on the wind?

I'm not planing on ever doing Civil War era naval battles, and am personally holding out for the Age of Sail. Just curious if there was anything planed on handling wind direction that we might see latter.
With a few isolated exceptions, naval combat during the American Civil War was between steam powered combatants. When sailing vessels were involved they are generally either being towed (Port Royal) or stationary (USS Congress/USS Cumberland at Hampton Roads, or the mortar schooners at Fort Jackson).

That said, the draft I submitted does contain very simple rules to allow ships to move under sail. Its a mechanism to allow for the quick use of a sailing ship, without resorting to a dissertation on ship handling under sail. I suspect you'll see them in the advanced rules in part 3 or later.

As for their applicablity to Age of Sail games, I suspect AoS deserves a more robust movement mechanic as ship handling is an important element of that era.

In the interim, check out Dave's link - he writes good rules!

Ray
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Postby Ray Ray » Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:03 am

And the vast majority of the Union ships in part two are actually steam ships.

The masts are more 'artistic decoration' for use in cruising than of use in a tactical fight.
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Postby Prophet » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:24 am

One quick way for wind might be by rolling a d8 or d10 and what ever direction the die is pointing and the number is the direction of wind and its speed. Might be too random and possibly over simply.
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Postby Ricepa » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:47 am

Again, could we also get the priority of the ships in S&P 53. The priorities must have been overlooked. Also, you have special traits listed that are not covered in your documents, VAS, or OOB. Could we have a list of special traits that you are using that are not covered by VAS and OOB. Thank you for your time.
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Postby JMoltzer » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:41 pm

Thanks, the VOTR PDF was helpful. I keep thinking the movement system in AoS would have to be the focus of the game. Ships are pretty generic as are the guns. When you think about it a 100 gun ship is pretty similar no matter what nationlity, dependent on the weight of the shot of course. But how you use the wind to your advantage is going to be the deciding factor in that game.
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Postby DM » Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:28 pm

When you think about it a 100 gun ship is pretty similar no matter what nationlity,
The ship might be - the crew aren't. Thats the area where the biggest distinction is likely to lie.
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Postby Brass » Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:29 pm

S&P54 has arrove at last :D but no Pook turtles or monitors other than the original :( . I assume there are going to be more fleet lists forthcoming?

Just as a bit of nitpickery, some of the In Service dates are way off base. CSS Mississippi and Louisiana, for example, show dates that are well after the date they were scuttled and CSS Manassas (in part 2) evidently wasn't comissioned until 6 months after it led the attack on the Union blockaders at Head-of-Passes (Nov 1861), an action which I believe makes it the first ironclad in North America and possibly the western world to attack another ship. It doesn't bother me that much but it could confuse people who aren't heavily into the period.

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Postby Brass » Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:40 pm

JMoltzer wrote:I have noticed a fair amount of the Union ships are sail driven with no steam engines or paddles propelling them. Is there a particular reason wind direction was left out of the game or was it just assumed everyone would be playing with ships that didn't rely on the wind?

I'm not planing on ever doing Civil War era naval battles, and am personally holding out for the Age of Sail. Just curious if there was anything planed on handling wind direction that we might see latter.
Just to be accurate, there are no pure sailing ships in the fleet lists; they all, both Union and Confederate, are steam powered, even the ones pictured moving under sail. That said, not only does David Manley's Civil War variant have sail rules but he has an Age of Sail variant (General Chase) at his Web page as well.

Check it out at http://www.btinternet.com/~david.manley ... nchor30588


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Postby Ray Ray » Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:50 pm

Brass wrote:S&P54 has arrove at last :D but no Pook turtles or monitors other than the original :( . I assume there are going to be more fleet lists forthcoming?

Just as a bit of nitpickery, some of the In Service dates are way off base. CSS Mississippi and Louisiana, for example, show dates that are well after the date they were scuttled and CSS Manassas (in part 2) evidently wasn't comissioned until 6 months after it led the attack on the Union blockaders at Head-of-Passes (Nov 1861), an action which I believe makes it the first ironclad in North America and possibly the western world to attack another ship. It doesn't bother me that much but it could confuse people who aren't heavily into the period.

LT
D'oh! Especially since the notes for Missisippi and Louisiana indicate they were destroyed in April 1862. Wish I knew how those crept in. Its not like I don't have a copy of Silverstone sitting on the desk.

There's no reason there won't be more fleet lists. I covered almost every combatant for both sides in the draft that was submitted. The 'City' class (or Pook turtle) were used in the first playtest, so I know they were rated. (Though the many variants were not).

Oh - Stonewall should have the RAM special trait as well.
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Postby Ricepa » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:59 am

I seem to keep getting lost in the shuffle. Could we also get the priority of the ships in S&P 53. The priorities must have been overlooked. Also, you have special traits listed that are not covered in your documents, VAS, or OOB. Could we have a list of special traits that you are using that are not covered by VAS and OOB. Thank you for your time.
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Postby Ray Ray » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:48 pm

Ricepa wrote:I seem to keep getting lost in the shuffle. Could we also get the priority of the ships in S&P 53. The priorities must have been overlooked. Also, you have special traits listed that are not covered in your documents, VAS, or OOB. Could we have a list of special traits that you are using that are not covered by VAS and OOB. Thank you for your time.
Your not being overlooked...and neither are the priorities. I didn't rate 'em. They don't exist.

Why? Well, there are soooo many ships of such differing abilities that it be a never ending debate about which ship belongs in which class. How many torpedo boats is a Virginia class ironclad worth? How many river rams equal a Pook turtle? I had a finite amount of time - the tactical rules is where I focused my time. This worked for me as I'm from the 'old school' of gaming that leans towards more historical matchups than 'point balanced' games.

There's nothing wrong with point balanced games (heck I play a lot of SST, VaS and BF:E using the point systems) but I didn't sink a lot of time into something that I didn't see a need to use. I tell you what - I'll start a thread and we can kick around what ship belongs at which level and see how it goes.

Second question - new special traits

High level descriptions (as I hope it gets covered in later S&P)

Monitor - no modifier if shot at in broadside. Also see ramming damage.
High Pressure Engines - dangerous steam engines. Might explode if push too far. (see special actions like full speed ahead or ramming speed).

Ram - ship has a ram bow
Tinclad - ignore hits from weak guns
Timberclad Ignore all hits from weak guns
Unarmored Hull: Do not subtract the armor value of this ship when resolving ramming damage against it.
Raider cannot be engaged until range to enemy is under 20"
Super Heavy Armor Ignore all hits caused by a heavy or medium smoothbore or any light gun.
Super Armored Hull: Additional protection from rams and torpedoes. -2 to all damage rolls caused by torpedoes or ramming attacks.
Heavy Armor Ignore all hits caused by a medium smoothbore or any light gun.
Chains: A wooden ship has placed anchor chains along the critical areas of the broadsides. Increase the armor score of the ship by +1 for any fire received through the port or starboard aspect. This trait may only be used by wooden ships.
Double-Ender: The vessel has multiple bridge controls, rudders and machinery designed to allow it to move at full speed in either direction. Double-Ender vessels ignore the movement limitations of the All Back! special action. They may move and maneuver as normal when issued an All Back! Special Action. Once a Double-Ender has successfully issued the All Back! Special Action, the stern becomes the bow and the vessel maneuvers normally without need to issue the All Back! Order in future turns (unless it wishes to reverse direction again).

That's most of the new traits.

(Let's wait for part 4 to see what we get).
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Postby oneeye » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:43 pm

is there a place that has the traits for the ships and the weapons. and the special actions? i am going to run a game and that will help. thank you.
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Postby juggler69uk » Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:37 pm

Ray Ray wrote:
Ricepa wrote:.....That's most of the new traits.

(Let's wait for part 4 to see what we get).
Any idea when part 4 might appear ?
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Postby Ray Ray » Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:12 pm

Sadly, I've no idea.

I'll have to defer to the Mongoose folks as to their future plans...
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Postby juggler69uk » Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:38 pm

Ray Ray wrote:Sadly, I've no idea.

I'll have to defer to the Mongoose folks as to their future plans...
Lets hope its soon then Ray, as it would seem odd to leave a game hanging for no good reason (or if there is a reason then it should be told). Its not good PR to whet the appetite and then let people down by witholding the final parts (Again??)
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