At All Costs victory condition

Discuss the Victory at Sea range of naval games.

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frankinla
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At All Costs victory condition

Postby frankinla » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 pm

Do subs count as "ships" for this scenario, or surface ships only? If subs count, once one side has eliminated the other's depth charge units, they can't lose, which doesn't seem right.

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Postby Swan » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:54 pm

No, Subs and Airplanes do not count for the scenario. Only Surface ships.
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Postby MongooseMatt » Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:40 am

Tip: Don't take just one destroyer :)

However, the forthcoming VaS supplement will give you some more options when it comes to ASW.
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Postby juggler69uk » Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:05 am

Matt
MSprange wrote:Tip: Don't take just one destroyer
The Scenario says Fleets may be chosen Freely.

So what happens if your fleet consists of only Submarines and Aircraft and "At all Costs" is chosen randomly.

The Victory condition states "This Battle will continue until all ships of one side have been DESTROYED" The winner is the one with at least one ship left on the table.

Now If Only surface ships count then :-
1) Does the sub fleet never lose as no ships can be "DESTROYED"
2) If the sub player destroys all opponents ships, does he/she not win because he has no surface ships
3) Does the sub player lose as soon as the game starts as he/she has no surface ships ??

Or do subs count

Perhaps a mod to the scenario may be in order to explain the surface ship condition
Its not whether you win or lose.......
....... oh wth win anyway
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Postby MongooseMatt » Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:09 am

To answer your overall question, Submersibles are most certainly ships. They use the same rules, simply have an additional trait. . .
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Postby juggler69uk » Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:15 am

msprange wrote:To answer your overall question, Submersibles are most certainly ships. They use the same rules, simply have an additional trait. . .
So Subs do count as Ships for the "At All Costs" scenario.
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Postby Captain_Nemo » Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:28 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Postby frankinla » Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:34 pm

It seemed to me that subs are ships. In the fleet lists, the rulebook refers to subs as ships (e.g., "Ships of this class are..."). That being the case, once I eliminate the enemy anti-sub capability (if any), I just keep one sub submerged on the table and I cannot possibly lose. That's so odd I started questioning whether I was missing something, but I guess not. :P

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Postby juggler69uk » Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:40 pm

frankinla wrote:I just keep one sub submerged on the table and I cannot possibly lose. ......

Frank in L.A.
You could lose on a combo of time and points
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Postby frankinla » Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:59 pm

juggler69uk wrote:
frankinla wrote:I just keep one sub submerged on the table and I cannot possibly lose. ......

Frank in L.A.
You could lose on a combo of time and points
Only if you instituted a house rule of 'whoever is ahead on points after x minutes wins'. The victory condition per the rules is "This battle will continue until all ships on one side have been destroyed." (p. 20, last paragraph).

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Postby Court Jester » Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:07 pm

Well if you meet up with a mate for a game and then proceed to get wiped off the surface but manage to keep one sub tralling around the board and then claim that as some sort fo draw I think your mate has the right to punch you... or at least verbally abuse you. :wink:

We have had a couple of AAC games finish with just one destroyer left or only subs and the player has been gracious enough to admit defeat... :D
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Postby frankinla » Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:17 pm

Court Jester wrote:Well if you meet up with a mate for a game and then proceed to get wiped off the surface but manage to keep one sub tralling around the board and then claim that as some sort fo draw I think your mate has the right to punch you... or at least verbally abuse you. :wink:

We have had a couple of AAC games finish with just one destroyer left or only subs and the player has been gracious enough to admit defeat... :D
Yes, I agree. This came up in my last game when my only 2 destroyers were sunk very early on and we realized I could not possibly win because I could never touch his subs. That kind of takes the starch out of the game, so we figured they must have intended that subs don't count. So, we happily played on and it wasn't until much later that I was wiped off the surface. :)

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Postby DM » Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:18 pm

The victory condition per the rules is "This battle will continue until all ships on one side have been destroyed."
Submarines are, of course, not ships but boats and thus do not count :D
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Postby juggler69uk » Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:38 pm

DM wrote:
The victory condition per the rules is "This battle will continue until all ships on one side have been destroyed."
Submarines are, of course, not ships but boats and thus do not count :D
DM Read Matts reply earlier shown below
msprange wrote:To answer your overall question, Submersibles are most certainly ships. They use the same rules, simply have an additional trait. . .
So come on Matt / DM can we have it as one voice in agreement
For the all ships destroyed, Do subs count or not
and if not my earlier post will need answering
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Postby lastbesthope » Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:53 pm

juggler69uk wrote: So come on Matt / DM can we have it as one voice in agreement
For the all ships destroyed, Do subs count or not
and if not my earlier post will need answering
You're assuming it's a one man one vote system. It is, Matt is the one man, and he gets the one vote.

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Postby frankinla » Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:11 am

Thanks to all for the input and official answer!

Some things I will remember for the next At All Costs game:
1. Always take subs.
2. Always take a good amount of anti-sub capability and play them very defensively.
3. Make eliminating the opponent's anti-sub units top priority.
4. Once this is done, relax and enjoy sinking the remainder of his fleet.
5. If things aren't going my way, casually compliment my opponent's extraordinary sportsmanship for continuing to play for more than an hour past the point my subs became invulnerable, thus guaranteeing he cannot win.
6. Take evasive action against incoming barrage of dice, rulebooks and miniature ships. :lol:

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Postby DM » Sun Apr 08, 2007 5:32 am

DM Read Matts reply earlier shown below
It wasn't a serious repsonse (hence the smilaey), rather an observation that in "real life" submarines are referred to as "boats" rather than "ships".

Of course, as I have said before on this forum (and will probably say again) the ability of subs to operate with surface forces is vastly overrated in VAS and, IMHO , they shouldn't count for victory purposes in this scenario, but as always it's Matt's decision :)
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Postby Keith » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:08 pm

You could always play usng victory points. That way the player without all the subs could steam off with a chance of winning (assuming thay had inflicted enough damage).

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