Bomber reload?

Discuss the Victory at Sea range of naval games.

Moderator: rcbecker1

frankinla
Shrew
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:05 pm

Bomber reload?

Postby frankinla » Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:33 am

Must carrier-based bombers return to reload between bombings? I say no, since I don't see that mentioned in the rules. My friends say yes, since planes continously bombing with unlimited ammo would be silly, and the book does mention carriers "recovering" planes. If you don't have to recover them to reload or repair, why mention it?

So, who's right? :)

Frank in L.A.
DM
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2422
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:43 pm
Location: Gloucester, UK

Postby DM » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:20 am

Your friend is sort of correct. Aircraft must land to rearm. However, its not in the current rules :) Watch out for developments soon (ish), or take a peek at my website for some ideas on carrier operations.
DM's naval website, now moved to the NWS site
http://www.navalwargamessociety.org/nav ... links.html
Co-author "Order of Battle"
Author, "Age of Dreadnoughts"
Bloke who paints VAS ships for Matt
Bacon Number of 4 :D
juggler69uk
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:44 pm

Postby juggler69uk » Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:46 pm

DM wrote:Your friend is sort of correct. Aircraft must land to rearm. However, its not in the current rules :) Watch out for developments soon (ish), or take a peek at my website for some ideas on carrier operations.
In which case are Fighters going to have to do a decklanding to re-arm/Re-fuel or are they still going to hang around all game once launched, shooting any number of opponents flights down in flames
Its not whether you win or lose.......
....... oh wth win anyway
juggler69uk
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:44 pm

Postby juggler69uk » Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:48 pm

Plus

Are multi aircraft dogfights going to get defined ?

As doing two on one as two separate dogfights just doesnt work for the inferior aircraft
Its not whether you win or lose.......
....... oh wth win anyway
lastbesthope
Executive Mongoose
Posts: 19697
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:27 pm
Location: Bristol, UK
Contact:

Postby lastbesthope » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:23 pm

Such scenarios were dealt with as separate dogfights at the tournament yesterday.

LBH
I'll live forever, heaven won't let me in and hell's afraid I'll take over!!!

Mongoose Accolades
frankinla
Shrew
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:05 pm

Postby frankinla » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:51 pm

Thanks for the replies. I like DM's refuel/rearm track. I was just reading the tournament report here and the player mentioned his tactic of launching all his flights then bottling out the carriers, so I guess he isn't worried about reloading! :P My group is never going to accept the magic-bomber-who-camps-on-top-of-your-ship-until-shot-down method, though. We'll probably go with a simplified house rule of requiring bombers to return to carrier after their attack and relaunch the following turn until some official word comes from on high. :D

Frank in L.A.
juggler69uk
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:44 pm

Postby juggler69uk » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:20 pm

lastbesthope wrote:Such scenarios were dealt with as separate dogfights at the tournament yesterday.

LBH
As I said, Doing it that way is unfair to the inferior aircraft(a/c), I mean you could actually place 4 a/c in contact and then have to fight 4 separate dogfights. with the better aircraft winning all and absolutely no bonus to the side able to gang up,.

If you cant get any benefit from multiple a/c in combat there would be little point in ganging up as you get the same chance of winning but could delay more turns by throwing them in one by one (as long as you have the initiative that is)

One on One I can deal with losing every time to better a/c, It just seems to me that there should be a bonus for ganging up in a dogfight. or a negative for successive dogfights in a turn by the same a/c,

For instance first dogfight as normal, second and futher dogfights the outnumbered a/c is -1

Anyway this is only opinion and ramblings
Its not whether you win or lose.......
....... oh wth win anyway
captainsmirk
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:31 am
Location: Limbo

Postby captainsmirk » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:24 pm

frankinla wrote:Thanks for the replies. I like DM's refuel/rearm track. I was just reading the tournament report here and the player mentioned his tactic of launching all his flights then bottling out the carriers, so I guess he isn't worried about reloading! :P My group is never going to accept the magic-bomber-who-camps-on-top-of-your-ship-until-shot-down method, though. We'll probably go with a simplified house rule of requiring bombers to return to carrier after their attack and relaunch the following turn until some official word comes from on high. :D

Frank in L.A.
Well parking you plane over a ship until it gets shot down is a little stupid, it can't do anything once its attacked once...

Since all bombers have one-shot weapons, and no way of reloading even if the did return to the carrier, they basically become useless after their one attack run...


Nick
Captain Sheridan you're under arrest for a clear violation of the laws of physics!
juggler69uk
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:44 pm

Postby juggler69uk » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:39 pm

captainsmirk wrote:Since all bombers have one-shot weapons, and no way of reloading even if the did return to the carrier, they basically become useless after their one attack run...
Unless you use them to run interference or blocking tactics against opponents aircraft
Last edited by juggler69uk on Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Its not whether you win or lose.......
....... oh wth win anyway
Keith
Mongoose
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 7:41 pm

Postby Keith » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:33 pm

juggler69uk wrote:
captainsmirk wrote:Since all bombers have one-shot weapons, and no way of reloading even if the did return to the carrier, they basically become useless after their one attack run...
Unless you use them to run interference or blocking tactics against opponents aircraft
Somthing our group has outlawed for the sake of historical accuracy. IMO the failure to deal with carrier airgraft is the one major failing of VaS as an historical game. In practice you never saw carriers toe to toe with the enemy, they always fled behind an escort screen when meetng enemy surface vessels.

I am currently develpoing on an approach akin (but moe general) to the Bismark mini campaign mentioned in an earlier thread but this needs a considerable work yet.
juggler69uk
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:44 pm

Postby juggler69uk » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:45 pm

Keith wrote:
juggler69uk wrote:
captainsmirk wrote:Since all bombers have one-shot weapons, and no way of reloading even if the did return to the carrier, they basically become useless after their one attack run...
Unless you use them to run interference or blocking tactics against opponents aircraft
Somthing our group has outlawed for the sake of historical accuracy. IMO the failure to deal with carrier airgraft is the one major failing of VaS as an historical game. In practice you never saw carriers toe to toe with the enemy, they always fled behind an escort screen when meetng enemy surface vessels.

I am currently develpoing on an approach akin (but moe general) to the Bismark mini campaign mentioned in an earlier thread but this needs a considerable work yet.
Yes this Tactic may well stop once you can land and re-arm them
Its not whether you win or lose.......
....... oh wth win anyway
frankinla
Shrew
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:05 pm

Postby frankinla » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:30 am

captainsmirk wrote: Well parking you plane over a ship until it gets shot down is a little stupid, it can't do anything once its attacked once...

Since all bombers have one-shot weapons, and no way of reloading even if the did return to the carrier, they basically become useless after their one attack run...


Nick
Yes, very true. I noticed as we played today that bombers have the 'one shot' attribute. When empty, they can still instigate dogfights (e.g., shooting down spotters) but I guess that's about it.

As for bombers having "no way of reloading", that's a very interesting idea. It never occurred to any of our group that bombers were intended to be one-use disposable items. Is that really how it's supposed to be? :?

Frank in L.A.
juggler69uk
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:44 pm

Postby juggler69uk » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:04 pm

frankinla wrote: As for bombers having "no way of reloading", that's a very interesting idea. It never occurred to any of our group that bombers were intended to be one-use disposable items. Is that really how it's supposed to be? :?

Frank in L.A.
As the way the rules are currently, the only need to recover aircraft and not lose them needlessly is in a campaign game where what you have left goes into the next engagement
Last edited by juggler69uk on Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Its not whether you win or lose.......
....... oh wth win anyway
Myrm
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:09 am
Location: Cambridge, UK

Postby Myrm » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:32 pm

One off games often tend to introduce issues based on the willingness to expend your forces above and beyond reality to secure a win.
juggler69uk
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:44 pm

Postby juggler69uk » Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:34 pm

Myrm wrote:One off games often tend to introduce issues based on the willingness to expend your forces above and beyond reality to secure a win.
Indeed, very true of most competition styles, not limited to Naval but mostly Historic or current, who knows what "attitude" future wars may hold.
Its not whether you win or lose.......
....... oh wth win anyway
DM
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2422
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:43 pm
Location: Gloucester, UK

Postby DM » Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:38 pm

One off games often tend to introduce issues based on the willingness to expend your forces above and beyond reality to secure a win.
Campaign games are the only REAL form of wargaming :D
DM's naval website, now moved to the NWS site
http://www.navalwargamessociety.org/nav ... links.html
Co-author "Order of Battle"
Author, "Age of Dreadnoughts"
Bloke who paints VAS ships for Matt
Bacon Number of 4 :D
juggler69uk
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:44 pm

Postby juggler69uk » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:02 pm

DM wrote:
One off games often tend to introduce issues based on the willingness to expend your forces above and beyond reality to secure a win.
Campaign games are the only REAL form of wargaming :D
How about sliding victory points dependent on how much of your force is left at the end of the battle or a subtraction for losing each 1/4 of your fleet etc ..... Ideas anyone ?
Its not whether you win or lose.......
....... oh wth win anyway
Taellik
Stoat
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Raleigh NC USA

Postby Taellik » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:22 pm

DM wrote:
One off games often tend to introduce issues based on the willingness to expend your forces above and beyond reality to secure a win.
Campaign games are the only REAL form of wargaming :D
Agree with that.

Too may times see the "go for broke" desperaion strategy rather than
quit now & fight another day type thing with 1-shots.

Give me a campaign any day!!!
Evil Trev
Shrew
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:35 pm
Location: Shirebrook

Postby Evil Trev » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:43 am

Easy to deal with in a competition environment. Only give the winner the points difference between the 2 scores! Loser either does'nt score, or only gets a minimal score if he did something.

Trev
Myrm
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:09 am
Location: Cambridge, UK

Postby Myrm » Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:29 am

juggler69uk wrote:
DM wrote:
One off games often tend to introduce issues based on the willingness to expend your forces above and beyond reality to secure a win.
Campaign games are the only REAL form of wargaming :D
How about sliding victory points dependent on how much of your force is left at the end of the battle or a subtraction for losing each 1/4 of your fleet etc ..... Ideas anyone ?
Enforced break points work...There are games about that use this I can think of one historical that kicks in at around half your forces retreated or dead which usually equates to less than a quarter out of action, one fantasy that kicks in at a quarter to a half.

So essentially any game with morale in it.

Well, that or need people to play the force again.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests