Invincible Destroyers!

Discuss the Victory at Sea range of naval games.

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hyndridge
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Invincible Destroyers!

Postby hyndridge » Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:23 pm

I have just put on a demo game for my club and came across a major problem.

German destroyers who move over 7" can not be hit, even at close range of a couple of inch's, unless they are beam on and then it takes a 6 to hit!

This really spoilt the game as the German destroyers just sailed up to the British Battleships and they couldn't be hit untill they turned side on to fire their torpedoes.

Is this right or have I missed something?

Roland
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Postby Poi » Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:33 pm

Not just German destroyers, anything with a target of 6+.

Spotters make it a bit easier.
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Postby hyndridge » Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:37 pm

Any ship with a target of 6 and a speed of 8"+!

Haven't used spotters yet, will try them tomorrow, but still seems abit OTT.

Roland
Last edited by hyndridge on Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Poi » Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:47 pm

Only needs speed 5" to get it, because of Flank Speed special action.
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Postby mbtanker » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:07 am

This is why destroyers were developed. The smaller torpedo boats could not really be attacked by the larger ships so DDs were built to ward off the other guy's DDs. So I'd say it is accurate within reason. Should they be able to take NO damage? Probably not but I'd be willing to say the problem is your fleet should have it's own DDs more than the system is broken.

At Jutland I think almost all DD attacks were successfully made without a lot of damage to the DDs until they got real close. That's WW1 of course but I think the same held in WW2 for the most part.

In a previous thread I wrote about the DD attack of Taffy 3 on the Japanese forces at Leyte. They pressed the attack for hours without a lot of ill effect considering the complete lopsided forces involved (a handful of DDs vs Japanese DDs, CA's and BBs).
Last edited by mbtanker on Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Court Jester » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:18 am

Yep, I think this is one of the things the game simulates well, that Destroyers were a dog to try and pin down with heavy guns.
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Postby Fitzwalrus » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:23 am

If you poke around a bit through the last two weeks' threads or so you'll find several threads addressing this problem (or more specifically hitting size 6+ ships moving at Flank Speed) as well as several suggested "House Rules" to fix the problem. This was one of the first problems with RAW that our group found the first game we played: I'm very surprised it made it through playtest.
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Postby Court Jester » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:26 am

But it is not a problem... it was designed that fast moving destroyers would be difficult to hit ifn ot impossible...
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Postby Der Kommandant » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:34 am

fast moving destroyers really were that hard to hit.
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Postby Fitzwalrus » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:02 am

It is a problem, because of the built-in constraints of any game system that uses a D6 for combat resolution: with only six choices something is going to get squeezed somewhere, and in this case it's historical realism.
It isn't just that "big gun" ships like BBs or CAs can't hit fast-moving destroyers: almost no one can, including other destroyers armed with fast-firing guns and specifically intended to fight similar small, fast vessels.

With RAW you could put a Fletcher, say, and a Fubuki on exactly parallel 35-knot (Speed 7) courses at night, and regardless of how close they are they cannot hit each other, even though their matching speeds make them relatively stationary to one another for gunlaying purposes. (Size 6+, Night = 7+, Speed 7+ = 8+ to hit on 1d6: they could be 20" apart or 1" apart and none of their guns could hit.)

That, purely and simply, is historical nonsense. This is why we're seeing suggested rules for Starshells and Searchlights and methods of rolling over a "6" on a D6, to allow the system to duplicate the historical results that it currently cannot.
As it stands now, in Night battles like the Solomons (where historically both sides had very heavy losses in DDs to night gunnery and torpedoes) the destroyer captain who doesn't crank up to Flank Speed is a dope, because if he does it's almost a certainty that he's going to come through with hardly a scratch. Saying that players shouldn't be running at Flank Speed in "constricted waters" misses the point, both because the IJN and USN did run through the Slot at high speeds historically and because the same rules apply to ships in the middle of the Atlantic at night.

The - rule- is - broken.
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Postby mbtanker » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:24 am

Ah, yeah that IS a problem.
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Postby Court Jester » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:28 am

Well... I must say I am not really that bothered about it. As you say something has got to be squeezed. And if that means that at night time by opponents destroyers start nipping around making themselves un-hittable whilst at the same time effectively making their own fire just as bad then I'll live with it.

But I guess if you want that authentic historical feel you can bolt on house rules to add more details.

I just enjoyed sinking stuff with my cruisers...
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Postby Soulmage » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:39 am

The "rolling over 6 on a d6" house rule fixes this just fine. Still damn hard to hit destroyers moving fast, but if you throw enough rounds down range (do you have a "range" in the open ocean?) you are bound to get them eventually!
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Postby mbtanker » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:42 am

Just finished reading the rules. The -1 to hit at night can be negated by a command roll within 20" or with radar so that puts a to hit roll on a DD at 6+. But if it is moving 7+ inches then you do get a -1 to your to hit roll that would indeed make it impossible to hit.

Yes two DDs side by side have a relative speed of zero but the lead required for a 30+ knot target abeam would still be considerable, and somewhat difficult. Considering the quick-play nature of the game I'm not sure that is a killer issue. Any ship zipping along at 7+ inches would be quickly out of the action especially at night. But NO chance to hit does seem wrong.

Although, in comparison, Decision Games' 'Battle Stations!' rules give no advantage to a fast moving target (except guns over 8" get a stiff penalty) and a DD firing at a DD at normal range would have about a bit under a 50% chance to hit regardless of speed. But you only get one single roll. Is that better?

Some tweak does seem in order and making fast movers easier to hit makes sense to me. Another option would be to give secondary guns a +1 to hit? Better to do a penalty for main guns against fast movers than for all? I think I'll use the "rolling over 6 on a d6" myself.
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Postby gbierl » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:05 pm

I think the fix for this might be a slight adjustment to the Secondary armament rules. In WWII secondary armaments were specifically designed to handle destroyers and other small, fast moving targets. These gun mounts were rapid fire, high speed traverse weapons. To reflect this I would suggest the following:

All Secondary armaments do not suffer from the -1 to hit any target which moves more than 7".

Thoughts?

Greg
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Postby Captain Kremmen » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:33 pm

gbierl wrote:I think the fix for this might be a slight adjustment to the Secondary armament rules. In WWII secondary armaments were specifically designed to handle destroyers and other small, fast moving targets. These gun mounts were rapid fire, high speed traverse weapons. To reflect this I would suggest the following:

All Secondary armaments do not suffer from the -1 to hit any target which moves more than 7".

Thoughts?

Greg
I think this is a very good simple rule that very much fits in the spirit of the game. I would very much like to recommend this becomes official. I shall try it myself.

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Postby The Chauffeur » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:32 pm

or you could simply add a characteristic to certain guns called "fast tracking" that negates the speed bonus.

c
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Postby DSV1 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:49 pm

sorry for sounding dumb but ....

How do you roll over 6 on d6 in the current game ?
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Postby gbierl » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:54 pm

DSV1 wrote:sorry for sounding dumb but ....

How do you roll over 6 on d6 in the current game ?
You don't. :shock:
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Postby DSV1 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:56 pm

so whats this talk of rolling about 6 to hit nasty destroyers ?

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