Measuring with Mini's in VAS

Discuss the Victory at Sea range of naval games.

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Reaverman
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Measuring with Mini's in VAS

Postby Reaverman » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:04 am

(2nd attempt, since the thread has disappeared)

With regards to measuring in VAS. Like ACTA, its centre point to centre point, to resolve ranges. So, to make things easier. Would it not be easier to measure funnel, to funnel?
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Re: Measuring with Mini's in VAS

Postby Wulf Corbett » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:11 am

Reaverman wrote:With regards to measuring in VAS. Like ACTA, its centre point to centre point, to resolve ranges. So, to make things easier. Would it not be easier to measure funnel, to funnel?
All sorts were suggested. Bridge to Bridge, forward funnels, bows, centre point. Matt stuck to his centre point measurement in the book, possibly because the counters will actually HAVE centre points...

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Re: Measuring with Mini's in VAS

Postby Reaverman » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:15 am

Wulf Corbett wrote:
Reaverman wrote:With regards to measuring in VAS. Like ACTA, its centre point to centre point, to resolve ranges. So, to make things easier. Would it not be easier to measure funnel, to funnel?
All sorts were suggested. Bridge to Bridge, forward funnels, bows, centre point. Matt stuck to his centre point measurement in the book, possibly because the counters will actually HAVE centre points...

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Sorry I've not made myself clear, I meant with miniatures.
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Re: Measuring with Mini's in VAS

Postby Jellicoe » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:15 am

Reaverman wrote:(2nd attempt, since the thread has disappeared)

With regards to measuring in VAS. Like ACTA, its centre point to centre point, to resolve ranges. So, to make things easier. Would it not be easier to measure funnel, to funnel?
Many ships have multiple funnels :) . Some carriers don't have any visible either. I see potential for arguments here too. The centre point should be easily found.
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Postby Locutus9956 » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:16 am

As with ACTA and so on it doesnt REALLY matter which precice part of the ship you measure from as long as your consistent ;)
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Postby Burger » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:16 am

I think the question is, how do you define the centre point on a mini which has no stem?
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Postby Jellicoe » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:23 am

Burger wrote:I think the question is, how do you define the centre point on a mini which has no stem?
Having a whole load of models on the table in front of me I cannot really see a problem with identifying the centre point. I guess some people might want to argue about this during a game, although quibbling about a few millimetres on a 30 inch shoot is stupid and not in the spirit really.

One could discreetly mark the centre point of each vessel.
Attach small pins with flags at the centre.
Mount the ships on bases with markings.
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Postby Reaverman » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:25 am

Burger wrote:I think the question is, how do you define the centre point on a mini which has no stem?
Exactly, what might be the centre point on a counter. Might not be on the mini, its all downt to interpretation. But picking a funnel would be easier, and for multiple funnels. Well you could either pick one, or always use the lead funnel!
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Re: Measuring with Mini's in VAS

Postby Wulf Corbett » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:25 am

Reaverman wrote:Sorry I've not made myself clear, I meant with miniatures.
It would certainly be easier to define precisely, but in some cases could be odd - look at HMS Nelson, or some tankers, with the funnel right at the aft end! Or carriers with funnels off on one side (or, in the case of some IJN carriers, sticking out the side...)

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Re: Measuring with Mini's in VAS

Postby Reaverman » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:26 am

Wulf Corbett wrote:
Reaverman wrote:Sorry I've not made myself clear, I meant with miniatures.
It would certainly be easier to define precisely, but in some cases could be odd - look at HMS Nelson, or some tankers, with the funnel right at the aft end! Or carriers with funnels off on one side (or, in the case of some IJN carriers, sticking out the side...)

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A valid point
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Postby Locutus9956 » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:26 am

well most ships are pretty symetrical tbh and unless youre going to be really nitpicky about milimeters (which admittedly alot of gamers will be....)

However I would point out that nearly all ships have an obvious main mast (or at least a bridge or some obvious point to 'count as' the center ;))
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Postby Reaverman » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:27 am

Locutus9956 wrote:well most ships are pretty symetrical tbh and unless youre going to be really nitpicky about milimeters (which admittedly alot of gamers will be....)

However I would point out that nearly all ships have an obvious main mast (or at least a bridge or some obvious point to 'count as' the center ;))
Well said Locutus of Borg
Last edited by Reaverman on Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:29 am

Locutus9956 wrote:well most ships are pretty symetrical tbh and unless youre going to be really nitpicky about milimeters (which admittedly alot of gamers will be....)
Well, when it comes to the Nelson, on a 1/1250 mini, that's about an inch from the centre... with a lot of Carriers, it could be 1/4 inch or more. Nonetheless, it's what I use (in 1/3000 it really DOESN'T matter. In 1/6000 there IS only a centre of the ship...)

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Postby Jellicoe » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:35 am

Locutus9956 wrote:well most ships are pretty symetrical tbh and unless youre going to be really nitpicky about milimeters (which admittedly alot of gamers will be....)

However I would point out that nearly all ships have an obvious main mast (or at least a bridge or some obvious point to 'count as' the center ;))
Most bridges, no maybe just a lot, are fore of the centre point. I think you are right that most ships have an obvious centre point. If people want to be nitpicky, well thats their problem. Life's too short for that.

I would be quite happy to mark a central point on each model.
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Postby DM » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:46 am

I can't think of any WW2 era ships (standfast carriers) that didn't have their bridges on the centreline.

Now moderns, thats another story :)
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Postby Jellicoe » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:51 am

DM wrote:I can't think of any WW2 era ships (standfast carriers) that didn't have their bridges on the centreline.

Now moderns, thats another story :)
Centre line in the sense of a a line runing from bow to stern yes then bridges would always be found on it. But I think the issue was a centre point in the sense of a point equidistant from from bow and stern and in that case most bridges are not located on the central point.
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Postby Alexb83 » Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:06 pm

I'd say measure from half way along the models' length, nothing more complicated than that. Funnels and masts, as pointed out, can be in various positions dependant on design. The half-length point is arbitrary, but more easily applied.
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Postby Locutus9956 » Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:09 pm

IWell quite a few carriers bridges are in fact NOT on the centerline but off to one side.. HOWEVER:

If youre using miniatures to represet point targets then it really doesnt matter WHAT you use as your centerpoint, as long as you pivot around that point when turning, and measure from that point for ALL movement and shooting. Frankly an easier idea than deciding whats the centerpoint etc might be to simply do all measurement from the prow? (thats the front to the landlubbers amongs you ;))

As to nitpicking, whilst I agree there is a limit it can be quite important when you get down to the old issue of whether or not youre JUST in range etc. Though personally If its within a milimeter or so Im inlcinded to generally call it in range as were not THAT accurate when moving genrally anyway and if anyone wants ot be THAT anal about it then frankly they can go take a long walk off a short pier :wink: )
Last edited by Locutus9956 on Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Burger » Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:10 pm

Locutus9956 wrote:IWell quite a few carriers bridges are in fact NOT on the centerline but off to one side.. HOWEVER:

If youre using miniatures to represet point targets then it really doesnt matter WHAT you use as your centerpoint, as long as you pivot around that point when turning, and measure from that point for ALL movement and shooting. Frankly an easier idea than deciding whats the centerpoint etc might be to simply do all measurement from the prow? (thats the front to the landlubbers amongs you ;))
The only issue is overlapping, if you're turning from the front or back (landlubber and proud f it!!) you're more likely to get in the way of your other ships.
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Postby Jellicoe » Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:18 pm

Locutus9956 wrote:IWell quite a few carriers bridges are in fact NOT on the centerline but off to one side.. HOWEVER:

If youre using miniatures to represet point targets then it really doesnt matter WHAT you use as your centerpoint, as long as you pivot around that point when turning, and measure from that point for ALL movement and shooting. Frankly an easier idea than deciding whats the centerpoint etc might be to simply do all measurement from the prow? (thats the front to the landlubbers amongs you ;))

As to nitpicking, whilst I agree there is a limit it can be quite important when you get down to the old issue of whether or not youre JUST in range etc. Though personally If its within a milimeter or so Im inlcinded to generally call it in range as were not THAT accurate when moving genrally anyway and if anyone wants ot be THAT anal about it then frankly they can go take a long walk off a short pier :wink: )
Carriers of course excepted :).

Could not agree more on the other points though. Its supposed to be a fun, fast moving game.

"long walk off a short pier" like it.

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