Sorcery and Grimoires

Discover the Legend RPG, Mongoose's fantasy game.
@stroval
Stoat
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:54 pm

Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby @stroval » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:45 pm

So in the sorcery section of the Legend core(p 190) its mentioned that each sorcery skill one takes is associated with the corresponding grimoire.

Does that mean as the GM I should separate all the spells and have my players study the equivalent tomes?

Wrack could be in the tome of 'Arcane destruction'(just for this example) so that would make the skill name: Sorcery(Destruction)... and so forth

How do you treat this in your game and are there premade tomes with their spells in some official sources?
alex_greene
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3787
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:29 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby alex_greene » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:59 pm

Yeah. That sounds about right.

Let's say you have a parameter spell - Animate (Element), say, or Diminish (Characteristic). If you have a Grimoire of air-based spells, say the Codex of the Winds, you would learn Animate (Air) from that Grimoire; but you would have to learn a new Grimoire skill to learn how to use Animate (Fire) from its home in the Tome of Exotic Conflagrations.

Same goes for, say, Diminish STR and Diminish CHA, if they are in different Grimoires - even though they both work the same way.
Board moderator. Product List [DriveThruRPG]: Blood Path [Legend]; Cosmopolite [Traveller]; Castrobancla [Traveller]
medievaladventures
Mongoose
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby medievaladventures » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:51 am

Yes, you have it correct. Although it was meant to be flexible, one of the problems is that there isn't really any default examples in the core book to use for a quick "starter" campaign. It would indeed be nice to have a half dozen or so "typical" schools (grimoires) given. The Deus Vult core book gives some example witch traditions (aka Sorcery Grimoire skill) as well as some magical books for Sorcerer's to study.

E.g. Drowned Lord Tradition; Sorcery Spells: Abjure (Air), Contact (Melusine), Control Weather, Dominate (Fish), Form/Set (Water), Holdfast, Shapechange (Human to Fish), Shatter, Smother, Wrack

E.g. Key of Solomon Grimoire; Spells: Banish, Curse (POW), Enhance (POW), Intuition, Magic Resistance, Mystic Vision, Protective Ward, Revelation, Spirit Resistance, Summon (dozens of variations), Telekinesis.
The Wolf
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1097
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:39 pm
Location: UK - England
Contact:

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby The Wolf » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:01 am

Take a look in the SGB thread, you should see some sorcerous grimoire examples in there. Each book of Sorcery in SGB is literally just that, with INT governing just how many spells you can keep in memory at any time. Any combination of owned grimoire spells can be memorised though.
Last edited by The Wolf on Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
"There are some things best left unsaid, many things best left unknown!"

Current Project -- Legend: Sheoloth

Darren W. Pearce - Amazon Author Page

Drivethru RPG
alex_greene
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3787
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:29 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby alex_greene » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:35 am

A grimoire need not be just one book, either. A Grimoire could be an entire school of sorcerous philosophy; a corpus of sorcery spells not confined to just one single volume, but written on walls, inscribed on immobile stones arranged in a unicursal labyrinth in the gardens or the like.
Board moderator. Product List [DriveThruRPG]: Blood Path [Legend]; Cosmopolite [Traveller]; Castrobancla [Traveller]
The Wolf
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1097
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:39 pm
Location: UK - England
Contact:

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby The Wolf » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:47 am

Alex raises a beautiful point, there's no reason why it has to be in a book. I have a whole spell as a tattoo for instance, no reason why that couldn't be expanded to a complete spell book.
"There are some things best left unsaid, many things best left unknown!"

Current Project -- Legend: Sheoloth

Darren W. Pearce - Amazon Author Page

Drivethru RPG
@stroval
Stoat
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:54 pm

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby @stroval » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:49 am

alex_greene wrote:A grimoire need not be just one book, either. A Grimoire could be an entire school of sorcerous philosophy; a corpus of sorcery spells not confined to just one single volume, but written on walls, inscribed on immobile stones arranged in a unicursal labyrinth in the gardens or the like.

Which brings me to the next part of my question:

do the older players here use Magic schools?
(Abjuration,conjuration etc)
@stroval
Stoat
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:54 pm

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby @stroval » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:52 am

The Wolf wrote:Alex raises a beautiful point, there's no reason why it has to be in a book. I have a whole spell as a tattoo for instance, no reason why that couldn't be expanded to a complete spell book.
Some years ago I was thinking of using star magic in my World. I guess it could work with Legend:your grimoire could be the night sky... spells of lower magnitude are the stars and they all combine to create constellations. Constellations could be thematic(aspis,sword of the knight etc) and give extra traits or spell-like abilities.
Last edited by @stroval on Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Wolf
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1097
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:39 pm
Location: UK - England
Contact:

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby The Wolf » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:54 am

I used to (I've been roleplaying for 33 years, working freelance professionally for 13) and now though thanks to games like Legend, I've been thinking outside of those original parameters which were in D&D.

So magic schools are something I don't use myself now.

@stroval - you could do that, literally the sky (and imagination) are the limits here really. Consider an entire planet when viewed from space could be a whole grimore of magic over time.
"There are some things best left unsaid, many things best left unknown!"

Current Project -- Legend: Sheoloth

Darren W. Pearce - Amazon Author Page

Drivethru RPG
@stroval
Stoat
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:54 pm

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby @stroval » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:04 am

The Wolf wrote:I used to (I've been roleplaying for 33 years, working freelance professionally for 13) and now though thanks to games like Legend, I've been thinking outside of those original parameters which were in D&D.

So magic schools are something I don't use myself now.

@stroval - you could do that, literally the sky (and imagination) are the limits here really. Consider an entire planet when viewed from space could be a whole grimore of magic over time.
Actually it makes sense,apart from maybe some in-world classification(fire magic,protective magic etc),theres no need for schools..

My next question(sorry I'm rambling on aren't I?) is about magic traditions:

Have you introduced new styles apart from divine,sorcery and common?

I wanted to introduce Ship/Sea Mages. The kit from AD&D was pretty close to what I have I mind.
Should I make it another way of doing magic? It could work through sorcery (Since ship mages might carve runes on ships and control them or use them as their grimoires) but shouldn't it feel as something new and different?
The Wolf
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1097
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:39 pm
Location: UK - England
Contact:

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby The Wolf » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:21 am

It really does depend on what you're actually going for in terms of thematic feel for the magic @stroval. For example in Spider God's Bride I'm using base Sorcery as the core magic since it fits so well with a Swords and Sorcery theme. I haven't used Common Magic since S&S tends to be less about a fireball to the face and more about being able to rip a living heart from someone with your spell.

There's no reason why you couldn't make a magic system addon to Legend to cover your own sea based magic. It would also work with Sorcery and especially the art of scrimshaw.
"There are some things best left unsaid, many things best left unknown!"

Current Project -- Legend: Sheoloth

Darren W. Pearce - Amazon Author Page

Drivethru RPG
alex_greene
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3787
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:29 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby alex_greene » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:13 am

The main "schools" posited in Legend really refer to different ways of accessing The Power.

Common Magic is the body of charms, cantrips and superstitions of the common people. In my Greentown setting, Common Magic comes from a variety of places - some Gods bestow them, some sorcerers release them as optimised forms of sorcery, rendered safe enough for ordinary citizens to use without the dangerous risks of sorcery; and some individuals with no magical ability otherwise just seem to come up with a Common Magic spell from some unexpected place: a dream, an inscription on a rock, or even from some place he goes to when he's been rendered unconscious by a Palsy spell to the head or some such.

Divine magic comes from the gods. Whether the gods are real or they're just a manifestation of the collective unconscious, the miracles come from that source and the only way to access them is through surrender to the will of the gods.

Sorcery is the magic of the force of the will, the intellect, the sorcerer's Holy Guardian Angel or True Word or whatever force majeure dwells within the human mind that can compel the universe to move at his beck and call.

Spirit magic (from the free Spirit Magic supplement) is another school - by tradition, shamans call upon no powers of their own, but for the ability to access and talk to the spirits and to call upon their powers and abilities.

And of course, there's Blood Magic (from Arcania of Legend: Blood Magic) - which isn't really a separate school, as such, but a different means of accessing the power, by expending one's own life force. Divine magic and sorcery both make use of this dangerous and volatile power. I'm sure some Common Magic and spirit magic could also use blood magic for a little extra kick, though it wasn't covered as such in Arcania of Legend: Blood Magic.

There is another way that Legend classifies magic: through the various religions, sorcerous orders, factions and cults present in the game's various settings. Legend uses the factions to restrict access to the more powerful spells and abilities to player characters until they are mature enough to use those powers wisely, in ways that would benefit the cult or order which teaches them. But those divisions are purely thematic - a sorcerous order themed around shapeshifting would teach Shapechange (Species) to (Species) and Dominate (Species) only because it's thematic to have that order teach those spells rather than, say, Animate (Iron) or the like. The Games Master determines the themes, making them appropriate to the setting; not the rules of the game.
Board moderator. Product List [DriveThruRPG]: Blood Path [Legend]; Cosmopolite [Traveller]; Castrobancla [Traveller]
strega
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 286
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:19 am
Contact:

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby strega » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:47 am

Some material previously published for various BRP based RPGs would come in handy here.

Bronze Grimoire for Elric/Stormbringer
The Unknown East for Elric
My Getting started with Legend file including a suggested starting adventure.

My Romano-British Game setting.
alex_greene
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3787
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:29 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby alex_greene » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:34 pm

I think that you only really need a title and pick out a theme, and through that combination of title and theme you can wrap a whole story around the book. Five examples off the top of my head:-

The Book of Night and Claws - a Grimoire themed around felines. Dominate (felines), Shapechange (Human) to (Feline), perhaps Project (night vision), might be found within - but it can only be read by moonlight; the pages remain stubbornly blank if read by normal light of any other kind.

The Sanguine Tome - contains dangerous, volatile versions of sorcery spells fuelled by blood magic but immensely powerful.

The Shadowed Art - a book filled with steamy illustrations showing men and women in various athletic poses; apart from it being one of those sorts of books, it contains a bunch of sorcery spells themed around the social graces.

Codex Aes - a book with a fiery theme; fire spells, metal and smithing spells, and spells concerning mechanisms of clockwork. There is a structure to this Grimoire, leading the reader from one thing to another, to another, tempting the reader to follow the instructions all the way through and put everything together so as to build something ...

The Mystery - an enigmatic book, nobody knows what spells it contains because nobody who has ever peered at its contents has ever returned to speak of it. Nobody even knows what the book looks like - only that it exists, and that it can be found within the Temple of the Mystery "over that hill and far away somewhere ..."

Otherwise, apart from the BRP and RQ stuff, Legend doesn't set out a list of Grimoires - though Grimoires are mentioned here and there as exemplars, there is no canon listing of tomes as such.
Board moderator. Product List [DriveThruRPG]: Blood Path [Legend]; Cosmopolite [Traveller]; Castrobancla [Traveller]
@stroval
Stoat
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:54 pm

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby @stroval » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:41 pm

Interesting suggestions all, thank you.

Still getting to grips with the system, so I am trying to find the best way of describing my world through it.

For instance should common magic be just that,or substitute for Sorcerer spells(sorcery as in d&d...untrained spontaneous mages)?

Those sort of world-building decisions...
@stroval
Stoat
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:54 pm

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby @stroval » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:50 pm

I read somewhere there was a supplement for MRQ I called Spellbook.

How much conversion would I need to use that with Legend?

Any plans to reprint that or any of the material within?
alex_greene
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3787
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:29 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby alex_greene » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:55 pm

@stroval wrote:I read somewhere there was a supplement for MRQ I called Spellbook.

How much conversion would I need to use that with Legend?

Any plans to reprint that or any of the material within?
Not much effort to rework it - half of it's already in Legend.
Board moderator. Product List [DriveThruRPG]: Blood Path [Legend]; Cosmopolite [Traveller]; Castrobancla [Traveller]
@stroval
Stoat
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:54 pm

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby @stroval » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:25 pm

alex_greene wrote:
@stroval wrote:I read somewhere there was a supplement for MRQ I called Spellbook.

How much conversion would I need to use that with Legend?

Any plans to reprint that or any of the material within?
Not much effort to rework it - half of it's already in Legend.

Ah I see, anything in particular?
alex_greene
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3787
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:29 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby alex_greene » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:42 pm

@stroval wrote:
alex_greene wrote:
@stroval wrote:I read somewhere there was a supplement for MRQ I called Spellbook.

How much conversion would I need to use that with Legend?

Any plans to reprint that or any of the material within?
Not much effort to rework it - half of it's already in Legend.

Ah I see, anything in particular?
Apart from having taken out all the references to runes, and the narratives preceding the writeups for the game mechanics, pretty much everything you would see in the spell lists for all three types of magic turn up in the Spellbook. A few others turn up in the Spellbook that don't turn up in Legend - and when you see them, you'll kind of know why they got cut.

But you'll see a lot of familiar faces - Bladesharp, Form/Set, Holdfast, Haste, Shapechange (Species) To (Species) etc. And Bladesharp seems to be like the Carlsberg Lager of spells - you see it turning up everywhere, and it seems to have been around forever.
Board moderator. Product List [DriveThruRPG]: Blood Path [Legend]; Cosmopolite [Traveller]; Castrobancla [Traveller]
@stroval
Stoat
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:54 pm

Re: Sorcery and Grimoires

Postby @stroval » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:25 am

So most of those older Supplements aren't worth getting to mine for ideas?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests