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Heavy Mace

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:14 pm
by WoeRie
One of my players just showed me that the Heavy Mace (Arms of Legend p. 64+72) is by FAR the most powerful one-handed weapon in the game:

a) The only 1H weapon that has Large damage.
b) The only 1H weapon that has the Sunder CM.
c) With 11/7 very low requirements for a 2H weapon used 1H.
d) Doing second highest damage of all 1H weapons (together with the Shortspear).

Somehow I have the feeling that at least a+b should only be available if used 2-handed.

Is there an Errata missing?

Re: Heavy Mace

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:27 pm
by Old timer
I dont know if there is any errata, but sunder, looking at all the other weapons, appears only to be available for 2h weapons, so i would suggest that CM is only available if the weapon is used 2h.

Re: Heavy Mace

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:49 pm
by WoeRie
Well, but beeing Large instead of Small or Medium is an even bigger feature and also no other onehanded weapon is bigger than medium.

Re: Heavy Mace

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:45 pm
by Matt_H
I see your point of view with a) but think you should leave it as
no other weapon apart from the long sword has it size change with 1H/2H use.

I also agree with Old Timer on point b), limit sunder to 2H use.

Think of how you can use this in game, whole cultures or laws can be based on the use of or limiting the use of this ferocious weapon! An invading army renowned for its use or a despised cult/temple who's guards specialise in it.
Imagine how much fun your players will have when they have to infiltrate a temple whose guards wield heavy shields and heavy steel, spiked maces :twisted:
(spiked: +2 DAM, +1 ENC & DEX required, defender +5%parry and steel: +2AP, +4HP, -1ENC)

P70 and 84 of Arms of Legend - Weapon Mods and Alt Materials.

Re: Heavy Mace

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:53 pm
by WoeRie
Matt_H wrote:I see your point of view with a) but think you should leave it as
no other weapon apart from the long sword has it size change with 1H/2H use.
But this is far worse than beeing large from scratch.
Matt_H wrote:Think of how you can use this in game, whole cultures or laws can be based on the use of or limiting the use of this ferocious weapon! An invading army renowned for its use or a despised cult/temple who's guards specialise in it.
Imagine how much fun your players will have when they have to infiltrate a temple whose guards wield heavy shields and heavy steel, spiked maces :twisted:
(spiked: +2 DAM, +1 ENC & DEX required, defender +5%parry and steel: +2AP, +4HP, -1ENC)

P70 and 84 of Arms of Legend - Weapon Mods and Alt Materials.
:lol: Ok, maybe I could try this... ok, but for the record it seems that you all agree with me that it is simply a mistake as the Heavy Mace is out of it's logical bounds.

Maybe I will simply drop the weapon from the list of allowed weapons or I change it to Medium Size and Sunder only 2-Handed.

Re: Heavy Mace

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:08 pm
by DamonJynx
I think it's probably a mistake. Personally, I would get rid of the 1H entry and make it 2H only as per the textual description.

Re: Heavy Mace

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:30 pm
by WoeRie
I houseruled the following for the Heavy Mace:

1) 1-Handed: Weapon size is Medium.
2) 1-Handed: Sunder is not allowed.
3) 2-Handed: As described, no change.

This results in a very good weapon, but not out of sync with the other weapons.

Re: Heavy Mace

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:58 pm
by RangerDan
WoeRie wrote:I houseruled the following for the Heavy Mace:

1) 1-Handed: Weapon size is Medium.
2) 1-Handed: Sunder is not allowed.
3) 2-Handed: As described, no change.

This results in a very good weapon, but not out of sync with the other weapons.
These changes seem sensible.

In my experience the weapons tables in Arms of Legend are quite a mess, with a lot more weirdness than the Heavy Mace.

I have always believed that many problem areas were a holdover from the original MRQ rules, never properly updated to MRQII or Legend.

I basically gave up on using the weapon tables from A&E, using only the core weapons, and 'skinning' items (ie a Khopesh 'counts as' a Falchion) with some Enhancements thrown in for colour if needed.

I still find A&E / Arms of Legend very useful for all kinds of other stuff, like when players unexpectedly decide they want to buy 15 pigs to dispose of a body, or would like to hire a Herald to bluff their way past a door guard... I just don't trust the weapons table :-)

Re: Heavy Mace

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:07 pm
by Bilharzia
DamonJynx wrote:I think it's probably a mistake. Personally, I would get rid of the 1H entry and make it 2H only as per the textual description.
Seconded.

Re: Heavy Mace

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:27 pm
by Rikki Tikki Traveller
RangerDan wrote:In my experience the weapons tables in Arms of Legend are quite a mess, with a lot more weirdness than the Heavy Mace.

I have always believed that many problem areas were a holdover from the original MRQ rules, never properly updated to MRQII or Legend.

I basically gave up on using the weapon tables from A&E, using only the core weapons, and 'skinning' items (ie a Khopesh 'counts as' a Falchion) with some Enhancements thrown in for colour if needed.

I still find A&E / Arms of Legend very useful for all kinds of other stuff, like when players unexpectedly decide they want to buy 15 pigs to dispose of a body, or would like to hire a Herald to bluff their way past a door guard... I just don't trust the weapons table :-)
Sounds like someone needs to write an OGL product that cleans up the Arms Tables.

Re: Heavy Mace

Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:31 am
by Prime_Evil
Rikki Tikki Traveller wrote:
RangerDan wrote:In my experience the weapons tables in Arms of Legend are quite a mess, with a lot more weirdness than the Heavy Mace.

I have always believed that many problem areas were a holdover from the original MRQ rules, never properly updated to MRQII or Legend.

I basically gave up on using the weapon tables from A&E, using only the core weapons, and 'skinning' items (ie a Khopesh 'counts as' a Falchion) with some Enhancements thrown in for colour if needed.

I still find A&E / Arms of Legend very useful for all kinds of other stuff, like when players unexpectedly decide they want to buy 15 pigs to dispose of a body, or would like to hire a Herald to bluff their way past a door guard... I just don't trust the weapons table :-)
Sounds like someone needs to write an OGL product that cleans up the Arms Tables.
That's a good idea, but what other changes should be incorporated into the proposed Revised Arms Table?

Re: Heavy Mace

Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:41 am
by Old timer
Revising the tables a nice idea, but be very careful how you do this, because just about every role player of legend is going to have different views on the damage, CM, AP/HP of all those weapons :).

Re: Heavy Mace

Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:16 pm
by soltakss
One of the many things about gaming that I have realised don't matter is weapon damage. Weapons are going to seem unbalanced to some people and balanced to others. Some think that one weapon is a super weapon, but which weapon that is depends on the person involved. I remember the discussions about Long Bow back in the day.

My normal view on this is "Change it if you prefer". If it works better in your game then change it, but I wouldn't bother.