legend combat?

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MrHemlocks
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legend combat?

Postby MrHemlocks » Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:39 pm

I posted the same thing over on Traveller forum. What is combat like in Legend RPG? Is it generic like AD&D or my complex? Dose it use hit charats and critical hit locations? Do you have an example to show?
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alex_greene
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Re: legend combat?

Postby alex_greene » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:45 pm

MrHemlocks wrote:I posted the same thing over on Traveller forum. What is combat like in Legend RPG? Is it generic like AD&D or my complex? Dose it use hit charats and critical hit locations? Do you have an example to show?
Combat in both games is tactical and quite involving. Legend combat rewards those who are fast on their feet and lucky.

Combat activities require an initial initiative roll to determine who acts in what order, often a critical element in gaining the advantage in a fight. Weapon styles include training in performing Combat Manoeuvres, both offensive and defensive - offensive CMs include Bash Opponent, Bypass Armour, Bleed, Choose Location, Stun Location or Sunder (cuts armour off a Hit Location), and defensive CMs include Blind Opponent, Disarm Opponent, Overextend Opponent or Riposte.

Combat is also deadly - a single stroke of a sharp blade could sever a limb easily, and a stab to a critical area such as the head or chest which impales could kill very quickly.
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Re: legend combat?

Postby MrHemlocks » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:00 pm

alex_greene wrote:
MrHemlocks wrote:I posted the same thing over on Traveller forum. What is combat like in Legend RPG? Is it generic like AD&D or my complex? Dose it use hit charats and critical hit locations? Do you have an example to show?
Combat in both games is tactical and quite involving. Legend combat rewards those who are fast on their feet and lucky.

Combat activities require an initial initiative roll to determine who acts in what order, often a critical element in gaining the advantage in a fight. Weapon styles include training in performing Combat Manoeuvres, both offensive and defensive - offensive CMs include Bash Opponent, Bypass Armour, Bleed, Choose Location, Stun Location or Sunder (cuts armour off a Hit Location), and defensive CMs include Blind Opponent, Disarm Opponent, Overextend Opponent or Riposte.

Combat is also deadly - a single stroke of a sharp blade could sever a limb easily, and a stab to a critical area such as the head or chest which impales could kill very quickly.
So there are crit/hit charts?
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Re: legend combat?

Postby alex_greene » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:17 pm

MrHemlocks wrote:
alex_greene wrote:
MrHemlocks wrote:I posted the same thing over on Traveller forum. What is combat like in Legend RPG? Is it generic like AD&D or my complex? Dose it use hit charats and critical hit locations? Do you have an example to show?
Combat in both games is tactical and quite involving. Legend combat rewards those who are fast on their feet and lucky.

Combat activities require an initial initiative roll to determine who acts in what order, often a critical element in gaining the advantage in a fight. Weapon styles include training in performing Combat Manoeuvres, both offensive and defensive - offensive CMs include Bash Opponent, Bypass Armour, Bleed, Choose Location, Stun Location or Sunder (cuts armour off a Hit Location), and defensive CMs include Blind Opponent, Disarm Opponent, Overextend Opponent or Riposte.

Combat is also deadly - a single stroke of a sharp blade could sever a limb easily, and a stab to a critical area such as the head or chest which impales could kill very quickly.
So there are crit/hit charts?
Characters have Locational Hit Points, and there is a table for those based on SIZ and CON on p. 11; other tables cover the number of Combat Actions a character can make during a Combat Round (p. 10), the amount of melee damage the character can deliver (Damage Modifier) (p. 10) and the amount of Combat Manoeuvres available to each combatant each round of combat (p. 131) and kinds of CMs one can deploy (p. 132).

But the charts you might expect to see from the likes of D&D? Not in this book. Anyone and everyone can fight in Legend, even Unarmed; and practically anyone and everyone can have access to all manner of spells, from Common Magic and Divine Magic to Sorcery (and Spirit Magic if you have the free supplement, and other options such as enchantments, alchemy, blood magic, concert casting and summoning if you have access to the Arms of Legend and Arcania of Legend: Blood Magic supplements).
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Re: legend combat?

Postby Bilharzia » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:51 pm

Example from Legend rules:

First Combat Round
Lilina acts first on Strike Rank 20 and rolls for her Sword and Shield, scoring 55 – a successful
hit. This costs her one of her 3 CA. The goblin attempts a parry, rolling 12 – a successful parry.
There is no difference in the success levels, so neither gains a Combat Manoeuvre; however,
Lilina can roll damage, scoring 7 with her 1D8 longsword damage. Her sword is Medium Size
and the goblin’s buckler is the same: he counters all Lilina’s damage with his shield and has spent
one of his CA doing so. The action now passes to Alaric on Strike Rank 19.

Alaric faces two of the goblins and singles out the meaner-looking of the two for a lunge with
his spear, rolling 94 – a miss. This costs him one CA. The goblin was attempting to parry with
its buckler and scores 19 – a successful parry. The goblin has one level of success better than
Alaric (a successful defence against a failed attack) and so gains a Combat Manoeuvre chosen
from the Defensive options. The goblin chooses ‘Trip Opponent’. Alaric is caught by surprise
by the goblin’s sudden sidestep and must roll against his Evade skill against the goblin’s original
parry of 19 to avoid losing balance. With a 46 Alaric succeeds and easily wins the Opposed Test,
thankfully remaining upright. The action now passes to the three goblins on Strike Rank 14.
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Re: legend combat?

Postby alex_greene » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:49 am

Curiously enough, Legend is not strictly a combat game. There are plenty of different activities characters can get up to besides combat, parley or trap defusing; social and intellectual pursuits include politicking for position in one's chosen Guild, cult or faction, raising one's knowledge of alchemy to refine one's supply of Philosopher's Stone, or going on Quests for the benefit of one's faction. Investigation, exploration, seduction, troubleshooting ... you think of it, and you can go off on an adventure in Legend to do it.
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Re: legend combat?

Postby Prime_Evil » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:24 am

Combat in Legend doesn't use critical hit charts per se - but there is a system of combat maneuvers that performs the same function in a clever way, ensuring that good rolls have appropriate effects. This makes Legend more tactical than AD&D, without the additional overhead that introducing critical hit tables for each weapon would involve (think Rolemaster....).

One feature of AD&D combat that might make a good addition to Legend is the notion of weapon speed. In Legend, when you roll for Initiative you roll 1d10 and add your Strike Rank. There are often Strike Rank penalties for wearing heavy armour. I've occasionally thought that it would be a nice feature to have an additional modifier based upon the speed of the weapon that you are weilding, effectively making a rapier faster than a greatsword. To keep things simple, most weapons could be given a speed modifier of +0, but fast weapons could be given a strike rank modifier of +1 to +3 while slow weapons are given a strike rank modifier of -1 or -3. This ensures that different weapons are more or less suitable in different circumstances and that tradeoffs between speed, reach, damage, and available combat maneusers need to be considered when selecting a weapon. It would also make it possible to introduce enchantments that improve the weapon speed of an item. Not eveyone would appreciate this idea, but I think it adds a bit of extra realism with a minimal increase in complexity...
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Re: legend combat?

Postby RangerDan » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:00 am

Prime_Evil wrote:Weapon Speed Idea
I like the idea in principle, but I think it does add quite some complexity and potentially weirdness.

For example you could not give a flat bonus per weapon, or you get the scenario where I carry a rapier (+3 SR) in order to be able to shoot off my Wrack faster...

Alternatively, you can tie the SR bonus/penalty to individual weapons/actions, but that is already more complicated and might bring its own set of problems, with one opponent able to strike twice in a row without counterattack by shifting SRs.
  • I.e. I have rolled Initiative 10 and am armed with a Mace (SR -2) and Dagger (SR +1).
    My opponent has initiative 9, attacks me, and I respond at Initiative 8 with my Mace and again with my Dagger at Initiative 11 of the next round without counterattack. If I want to use my Mace again my opponent will be able to strike me twice without counterattack in turn.
Of course the above scenario may actually be the desired outcome of your house rule.
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Re: legend combat?

Postby Prime_Evil » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:30 am

I should emphasize that I haven't thought the idea through in great detail - it's just one of those vague concepts rattling around in the back of my brain at the moment. My preference is that if I develop a concept like this as an optional rule is to keep things as simple as possible - ideally weapon speed should add some additional tactical interest to combat without overwhelming players.
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Re: legend combat?

Postby alex_greene » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:21 pm

The difference between the fast weapons and those which are larger and slower is reflected in the Combat Manoeuvres available to them - rapier training is likely to have Bypass Parry, Bypass Armour and Impale, as compared to, say, a war hammer's Bash Opponent or Stun Location.
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Re: legend combat?

Postby Deleriad » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:43 pm

alex_greene wrote:The difference between the fast weapons and those which are larger and slower is reflected in the Combat Manoeuvres available to them - rapier training is likely to have Bypass Parry, Bypass Armour and Impale, as compared to, say, a war hammer's Bash Opponent or Stun Location.
Agree with Alex here. There is quite a mindset difference for Legend over previous D100 games when it comes to combat mechanics. The combat manoeuvre mechanic is largely where the combat engine is. If you really want to emphasise weapon speed then new manoeuvres or advantages to pre-existing CMs seem to best way to go.

You can also tie it into SR to encourage reward characters for wearing lighter armour and having higher INT & DEX instead of STR & SIZ.

e.g. something like
"Have at you." a weapon specific CM (rapiers and their ilk) Attack CM. If your SR is higher than your opponent's SR you can immediately attack the same opponent again providing you have at least one CA to spend on the attack. The opponent can defend normally (providing they have CAs to do so.)

That might let you get multiple attacks in a row off at the same person until they manage to parry or Evade.
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Re: legend combat?

Postby DamonJynx » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:45 am

Kind of a little like the D&D 3.x feat, "Weapon Finesse" but Legendised, which allowed certain weapons, that benefit from high DEX score, Rapiers are a good example, to use their wielders DEX bonus rather than STR bonus for attacks and damage. Very beneficial for 'thief' type characters who on average would have STR at 11-12 with little or no bonus and DEX of 16+ which yields a +3 bonus or better.
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Re: legend combat?

Postby Redcrow » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:56 am

DamonJynx wrote:Kind of a little like the D&D 3.x feat, "Weapon Finesse" but Legendised, which allowed certain weapons, that benefit from high DEX score, Rapiers are a good example, to use their wielders DEX bonus rather than STR bonus for attacks and damage. Very beneficial for 'thief' type characters who on average would have STR at 11-12 with little or no bonus and DEX of 16+ which yields a +3 bonus or better.
I could see something like that. Maybe a Damage Modifier based on INT+DEX instead of SIZ+STR?
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Re: legend combat?

Postby DamonJynx » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:10 am

Redcrow wrote:
DamonJynx wrote:Kind of a little like the D&D 3.x feat, "Weapon Finesse" but Legendised, which allowed certain weapons, that benefit from high DEX score, Rapiers are a good example, to use their wielders DEX bonus rather than STR bonus for attacks and damage. Very beneficial for 'thief' type characters who on average would have STR at 11-12 with little or no bonus and DEX of 16+ which yields a +3 bonus or better.
I could see something like that. Maybe a Damage Modifier based on INT+DEX instead of SIZ+STR?
That would probablly work. Not sure about the speed factor though.
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Re: legend combat?

Postby Prime_Evil » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:29 am

It's a neat idea and a good option for swashbuckling characters like the Grey Mouser. Perhaps it could be a Heroic Ability for those who have mastered the arts of fencing?
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Re: legend combat?

Postby warlock1971 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:47 am

Cool idea. +1
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Re: legend combat?

Postby Prime_Evil » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:37 pm

I'd do it something like this, creating my own version of the Swashbuckler heroic ability mentioned in Pirates of Legend / MRQI Pirates, but not actually described in either of those works!

Swashbuckler
Requirements: DEX 15 or higher, any Fencing Combat Style at 90% or higher
Hero Points: 12
Duration: Continuous

When armed with a fencing weapon such as a rapier, saber, foil, or épée, you may calculate your damage modifier using DEX + INT rather than STR+SIZ. Furthermore, if you are armed with a companion parrying weapon such as a main-gauche or parrying dagger in your other hand, you also gain a single extra Combat Action each round that may only be used to deflect enemy attacks. This may be combined with the effects of the Deflecting Parry heroic ability.
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Re: legend combat?

Postby Bilharzia » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:17 pm

Prime_Evil wrote:I'd do it something like this, creating my own version of the Swashbuckler heroic ability mentioned in Pirates of Legend / MRQI Pirates, but not actually described in either of those works!

Swashbuckler
Requirements: DEX 15 or higher, any Fencing Combat Style at 90% or higher
Hero Points: 12
Duration: Continuous

When armed with a fencing weapon such as a rapier, saber, foil, or épée, you may calculate your damage modifier using DEX + INT rather than STR+SIZ. Furthermore, if you are armed with a companion parrying weapon such as a main-gauche or parrying dagger in your other hand, you also gain a single extra Combat Action each round that may only be used to deflect enemy attacks. This may be combined with the effects of the Deflecting Parry heroic ability.

I think this is overkill since part of it is covered by the multiple opponents section in the rules, p.137-8, in fact it specifically mentions this as a way of emulating a swashbuckler style. That and dex+int as a damage modifier doesn't make any sense. STR+((SIZ+DEX)/2) maybe.
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Re: legend combat?

Postby DamonJynx » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:30 pm

Bilharzia wrote:That and dex+int as a damage modifier doesn't make any sense. STR+((SIZ+DEX)/2) maybe.
I disagree, using DEX+INT to calculate the DM in this instance makes perfect sense. The character is intelligent enough and quick enough to recognise weakness' in his opponents defense and take full advantage of them - it isn't a case of how hard you hit, more a case of knowing where to hit and how quickly you can strike for maximum effect.
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Re: legend combat?

Postby alex_greene » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:46 pm

DamonJynx wrote:
Bilharzia wrote:That and dex+int as a damage modifier doesn't make any sense. STR+((SIZ+DEX)/2) maybe.
I disagree, using DEX+INT to calculate the DM in this instance makes perfect sense. The character is intelligent enough and quick enough to recognise weakness' in his opponents defense and take full advantage of them - it isn't a case of how hard you hit, more a case of knowing where to hit and how quickly you can strike for maximum effect.
That would probably require a separate Combat Style, specifically Fencing, with an opening Base Chance of (INT+DEX). The Unarmed equivalent could be a special Combat Style, Martial Art (whatever the style is called), with the same opening base chance, (INT+DEX) - this, like Fencing, could be treated as Advanced Skills for the purpose of opening the skills and improving them during play.
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