The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby PeteN » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:22 pm

DamonJynx wrote:Ahh, well, you are the competition now...
I suppose I will be when Monster Island is released... ;)
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby Prime_Evil » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:38 pm

PeteN wrote:
DamonJynx wrote:Ahh, well, you are the competition now...
I suppose I will be when Monster Island is released... ;)
Heh...you should be busy writing instead of posting here ;)

I'm looking forward to Monster Island. It's a pity that material was cut from Blood Magic - the stuff in the published book is impressive and it would have been great to see the rest. I suppose there's no chance that Mongoose will release a web enhancement or PDF-only supplement containing some of the material that was cut?
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby Prime_Evil » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:12 pm

The Wolf wrote:I am looking at the way the NPCs ramp up too, so expect the stats to alter. I'm going to adopt your 1 for 1 skill transfer too Prime_Evil. I really like that, so thanks for the previous headsup and thanks too for the support.
My normal approach to d20 conversion is to do the stats first. Calculating SIZ and POW can be a bit tricky, and is more an art than a science. However, the rest of the stats port across easily as shown :

STR = STR
CON = CON
SIZ = (STR+CON)/2
INT = INT
POW = (WIS + CHA)/2
DEX = DEX
CHA = CHA

Once you've got the characteristics, calculate attributes such as Combat Actions, Damage Modifier, etc using the standard Legend rules. Then calculate the character's base chance with the various basic skills - I use a spreadsheet to automate this.

If I'm in a hurry, I give the converted NPC a bonus to important skills equal to +5% x level and minor skills equal to +2% x level. This often gives you figures that "feel right" without much effort...
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby The Wolf » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:22 am

PeteN wrote:
DamonJynx wrote:Send a chapter or two to each interested party (3-4 people maximum) - if he likes the work, a mention in the credits would probably be sufficient and perhaps a free PDF copy of the book if he's in a generous mood.
I wouldn't be so sure, considering I still haven't even received a courtesy copy of the lamentably butchered Blood Magic...
Hey Pete, good to see you mate. I notice there's a homage to Sword and the Sorcerer in Blood Magic. Good old Richard Moll (as the Sorcerer). At least it appears to be a homage to that classic heart-tearing B-movie spell.

I love it by the way.
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby DamonJynx » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:08 am

Prime_Evil wrote:
The Wolf wrote:I am looking at the way the NPCs ramp up too, so expect the stats to alter. I'm going to adopt your 1 for 1 skill transfer too Prime_Evil. I really like that, so thanks for the previous headsup and thanks too for the support.
My normal approach to d20 conversion is to do the stats first. Calculating SIZ and POW can be a bit tricky, and is more an art than a science. However, the rest of the stats port across easily as shown :

STR = STR
CON = CON
SIZ = (STR+CON)/2
INT = INT
POW = (WIS + CHA)/2
DEX = DEX
CHA = CHA

Once you've got the characteristics, calculate attributes such as Combat Actions, Damage Modifier, etc using the standard Legend rules. Then calculate the character's base chance with the various basic skills - I use a spreadsheet to automate this.

If I'm in a hurry, I give the converted NPC a bonus to important skills equal to +5% x level and minor skills equal to +2% x level. This often gives you figures that "feel right" without much effort...
I like this. I'm a bit confused by the POW stat though. Why wouldn't you just use WIS as is? IMO it's a pretty close match.
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby Bilharzia » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:46 am

DamonJynx wrote: I like this. I'm a bit confused by the POW stat though. Why wouldn't you just use WIS as is? IMO it's a pretty close match.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby DamonJynx » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:20 am

Sorry mate, I must be a bit thick. :?

The only Stat not in D&D is SIZ and prime-evil's conversion handles that nicely.

I'm aware that D20 (particularly D&D 3.+ incl PFRPG) sorcerers use CHA as their primary ability for determining Spells Known & DC's etc, but I believe Prime_Evil is talking about generic conversions, not Class specific ones.

For Sorcerers I would simply swap the CHA (which should be higher than their WIS if they've built the character properly) & WIS values so that CHA=POW, WIS=CHA. It wouldn't matter for D20 Clerics as WIS should be their highest score anyhow.

What do you do then in the case of D&D Wizards whose primary score is INT?
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby Prime_Evil » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:57 am

DamonJynx wrote:
Sorry mate, I must be a bit thick. :?

The only Stat not in D&D is SIZ and prime-evil's conversion handles that nicely.

I'm aware that D20 (particularly D&D 3.+ incl PFRPG) sorcerers use CHA as their primary ability for determining Spells Known & DC's etc, but I believe Prime_Evil is talking about generic conversions, not Class specific ones.

For Sorcerers I would simply swap the CHA (which should be higher than their WIS if they've built the character properly) & WIS values so that CHA=POW, WIS=CHA. It wouldn't matter for D20 Clerics as WIS should be their highest score anyhow.

What do you do then in the case of D&D Wizards whose primary score is INT?
WIS and POW are fairly close - indeed, the conversion notes at the back of the d20 version of Call of Cthulhu recommend a straight equivalence between the two stats. However, when you attempt to convert d20 spellcasters to Legend (or any other d100 game) hilarity ensures - you typically end up with casters who are exhausted after casting even the simplest spell. Using the average of CHA + WIS for d20 sorcerers works tolerably well - you often end up with Legend sorcerers with a POW of 13-15. This approach also works well for Divine Casters, since d20 clerics often max out their WIS and end up with an abnormally high POW if you convert directly from WIS to POW. I suppose that using the average of INT + WIS might work for d20 wizards, although I've never really tested that approach...
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby DamonJynx » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:11 am

Most of the PC's I've GM'd in D20 games over the last decade or so had as their 'primary characteristic' a score of 14+. I don't recall the NPC's that much but from memory they used the default D&D array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 IIRC) adjusted for level which would give them a minimum score of 14 or 15. Translated to POW that is quite substantial if you're not using Dedicated POW as in the Elric pacts (such a score would generally allow for approx 10 usable MP as most pacts would require 4-5 POW for the dedication).

Of course, this is provided you work from the base score, not the score after level increases. If you're using the scores adjusted for level, well then yes, an average of WIS & CHA would most likely be more fitting.:wink:
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby Prime_Evil » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:29 am

DamonJynx wrote:Of course, this is provided you work from the base score, not the score after level increases. If you're using the scores adjusted for level, well then yes, an average of WIS & CHA would most likely be more fitting.:wink:
Just to complicate matters, don't forget that Legend also allows you to raise characteristics during play, although the rate of increase tends to be slower. Look at the guidelines for creating experienced characters in the Legend core rulebook for an idea of the anticipated rate of increase - stat creep is less of an issue in d100 games than it is in d20 games!
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby The Wolf » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:00 am

Oustanding Prime_Evil. Thanks for this!
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby PeteN » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:53 am

The Wolf wrote:Hey Pete, good to see you mate. I notice there's a homage to Sword and the Sorcerer in Blood Magic. Good old Richard Moll (as the Sorcerer). At least it appears to be a homage to that classic heart-tearing B-movie spell.
Yep it was in part, but it actually originated in the Conan story "The People of the Black Circle". Most of the book is homage to S&S or provides an insight into the practices of religions and cults of our own world.
I love it by the way.
Thanks. Good luck with the conversion!
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby The Wolf » Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:25 am

I need to read 'People of the Black Circle' now. Thanks Pete, also thanks for the support. We'll have to catch up at a con at some point. Been a while!

I really do love Blood Magic and it is definitely one of my favourite books for Legend so far. It is a shame you haven't got a copy yet though :(

I am really looking forwards to Monster Island too!
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby Prime_Evil » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:07 pm

Because "People of the Black Circle" was published in 1934, the original version is in the public domain in those parts of the world where copyright lasts for 70 years after the death of an author - including the UK and Australia (but not America...). The Australian branch of Project Gutenberg makes the public domain version of this story available for free on their website, although you'll have to Google it for yourself since Paradox Entertainment has trademarked Conan and many of the other characters of Robert E. Howard as a result of the purchase of Conan Properties Inc. and enforces these intellectual property rights worldwide. (Translation: although the story itself is in the public domain, the legal status of the characters in it is fairly murky - gotta love U.S. intellectual property laws!)
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby The Wolf » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:12 am

I'd forgotten about this thread. Thanks for the clarification Prime_Evil :)
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby Prime_Evil » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:19 pm

The Wolf wrote:I'd forgotten about this thread. Thanks for the clarification Prime_Evil :)
No problems!

One quick question that popped into my mind - how do you plan to convert d20 skills that don't have a Legend equivalent, such as Intimidate and Gather information?

(FYI, I've been wondering for a while whether it might be worth introducing an advanced skill called Intimidation with a base chance of either STR + CHA that is a specialized form of the Influence skill. Indeed, it would bear the same kind of relationship to the Influence basic skill as the existing Seduction skill does...)
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby DamonJynx » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:32 pm

Prime_Evil wrote:
The Wolf wrote:I'd forgotten about this thread. Thanks for the clarification Prime_Evil :)
No problems!

One quick question that popped into my mind - how do you plan to convert d20 skills that don't have a Legend equivalent, such as Intimidate and Gather information?

(FYI, I've been wondering for a while whether it might be worth introducing an advanced skill called Intimidation with a base chance of either STR + CHA that is a specialized form of the Influence skill. Indeed, it would bear the same kind of relationship to the Influence basic skill as the existing Seduction skill does...)
I would use Streetwise for GI & as Loz mentioned in a post somewhere, you needn't have specialised skill for intimidate - though Influence does do the job, just have the opponents make opposed Combat Styles and give appropriate bonus' & or penalties.
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby soltakss » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Prime_Evil wrote:WIS and POW are fairly close
So close that one of the MRQ supplements based a lot of skills on WIS ...
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby The Wolf » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:41 pm

I'd be tempted to do something along the same lines as Loz mentioned. It's a good way to use Streetwise and as for Intimidation, Influence definitely can work that way. I do kind of like the idea of a seperate Intimidation skill, but that might turn up in a future thing - especially if I can put something together myself.
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Re: The Spider God's Bride - A Mini Review

Postby Prime_Evil » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:04 pm

The Wolf wrote:I'd be tempted to do something along the same lines as Loz mentioned. It's a good way to use Streetwise and as for Intimidation, Influence definitely can work that way. I do kind of like the idea of a seperate Intimidation skill, but that might turn up in a future thing - especially if I can put something together myself.
I agree that Gather Information can be converted to Streetwise in many cases.

You can certainly convert the Intimidation skill to Influence, but I think that a separate skill might work well for the Swords and Sorcery subgenre. I feel that the Seduction skill has established a precedent here - it is possible to offer various specialisations of the Influence skill as advanced skills. I suppose that it depends upon how granular you want the system to become...

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