Attacking with Animate (Substance)

Discover the Legend RPG, Mongoose's fantasy game.
Tathas
Cub
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:04 pm

Attacking with Animate (Substance)

Postby Tathas » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:40 am

Would attacking qualify as a "physical action" and as such, use one-half (or full if combined with Form/Set) the Sorcerer's relevant skill? And what skill would be used for such attacks? Or does that section only apply to things like carpentry or other crafts?

In my mind, any attacks with Animate would be at the Grimoir skill and that would cover cases such as engulfing with sand or water, smashing with stone blocks, or striking with an animated weapon.
User avatar
SSWarlock
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1052
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:26 pm
Location: Fulacin/Rhylanor/Spinward Marches

Re: Attacking with Animate (Substance)

Postby SSWarlock » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:52 am

Would attacking qualify as a "physical action" and as such, use one-half (or full if combined with Form/Set) the Sorcerer's relevant skill? And what skill would be used for such attacks? Or does that section only apply to things like carpentry or other crafts?
IMO, a "physical action" represents any activity the spellcaster implements by using or manipulating his/her/its own body. Using spell energy to use or manipulate any physical object or material that is not of one's own physical form doesn't count.
In my mind, any attacks with Animate would be at the Grimoir skill and that would cover cases such as engulfing with sand or water, smashing with stone blocks, or striking with an animated weapon.
We are of the same mind in this.
Sir Dhaven Hevelin, IOD, Baronet of Fulacin
Owner/Captain - S.S. Warlock

Playing Traveller/RQ/D&D since 1977
User avatar
alex_greene
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3842
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:29 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Attacking with Animate (Substance)

Postby alex_greene » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:54 pm

SSWarlock wrote:
Would attacking qualify as a "physical action" and as such, use one-half (or full if combined with Form/Set) the Sorcerer's relevant skill?
Yes, by definition.

The sorcerer uses his own appropriate combat styles or Unarmed for attacks. Unless Form/Set has been combined with the Animate spell through the Combine Manipulation augmentation, the sorcerer's combat skills are halved.
Board moderator. Product List [DriveThruRPG]: Blood Path [Legend]; Cosmopolite [Traveller]; Castrobancla [Traveller]
Tathas
Cub
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:04 pm

Re: Attacking with Animate (Substance)

Postby Tathas » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:51 pm

Hehe. That's amusing. Two contradicting responses :)

To further explain why I'd think it's the Grimoire skill, imagine a situation where a lone hero is engaging the dastardly sorcerer in his lair for the final showdown of the story. Battered by animated rock attacks the hero is injured and disarmed but finally gets within reach of his opponent.

"Now I've got him!" Our hero thinks, "I shall pummel him senseless!"

Only to find that the hero is sorely outmatched in Unarmed skill, the sorcerer reaches out and grapples with our hero, who vainly tries to break free. But it is no use and the evil sorcerer quickly wrestles him to submission. The sorcerer sits back and thinks again how his long hours of practicing rolling boulders around has served him in the end.


This sounds absurd to me.
User avatar
alex_greene
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3842
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:29 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Attacking with Animate (Substance)

Postby alex_greene » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:02 pm

Tathas wrote:Hehe. That's amusing. Two contradicting responses :)
Unfortunately, the response I made is based on the reading of the Animate (Substance) spell on p. 196 of Legend Core Rulebook.

This spell animates a specific type of substance as indicated by the particular spell; thus there are many variants of Animate available. The sorcerer animates three points of SIZ or a cubic metre of insubstantial material for every 10% of his Sorcery (Grimoire) skill, causing it to move about and interact clumsily with its surroundings. The substance moves at a rate of one metre by default, although points of SIZ or ENC may be substituted for extra movement on a three for one basis; and cubic metres on a one for one basis.

The sorcerer’s chance to have the animated object perform any complex physical skill is equal to his own chance to perform that action halved (before any modifiers). If combined with the appropriate Form/Set spell (through application of the Combine Manipulation), the caster can perform much finer manoeuvring of the target. In this case, the animated object will use the caster’s full skill scores for physical activities.


So the core rulebook calls it - it's the sorcerer's own Combat Styles and/or Unarmed, halved unless Form/Set is combined with the Animate spell.

And yes, if the sorcerer's Unarmed skill is greater than that of the attacking hero, then the hero could still be thoroughly outclassed and have his gluteus maximi handed to him by a big lump of clay that walks like a man. And after having been softened up by the temporary clay golem, the sorcerer could drop his spell, step in and finish the job handily.

Them's the breaks.
Board moderator. Product List [DriveThruRPG]: Blood Path [Legend]; Cosmopolite [Traveller]; Castrobancla [Traveller]
Tathas
Cub
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:04 pm

Re: Attacking with Animate (Substance)

Postby Tathas » Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:32 am

Yes, I read the text before I posted. That's why I asked if combat was included in the "physical action" text. The inclusion of "complex" in the text is why I felt that it might not be. I guess the issue is also that "complex" is used as a description for when a restriction applies without defining what "complex" means.

I mean, in the description, Jedekiah drives a skiff with Animate (Wind) without making an unarmed attack roll to hit the sail, which would have been a silly requirement, but also without needing to make any sort of shiphandling roll. If augmenting the use of an advanced skill is automatically successful, purely based on your mental command, why isn't moving a physical object around also based on mental commands? A significant portion of any melee combat skill is the ability to perform the movements and the control to do them correctly. Isn't that exactly what the Animate and Form/Set spell knowledge would correspond to?
User avatar
alex_greene
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3842
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:29 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Attacking with Animate (Substance)

Postby alex_greene » Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:14 am

Tathas wrote:Yes, I read the text before I posted. That's why I asked if combat was included in the "physical action" text. The inclusion of "complex" in the text is why I felt that it might not be. I guess the issue is also that "complex" is used as a description for when a restriction applies without defining what "complex" means.
I can't imagine an activity being more complex and physical than a pitched combat, so yes - combat styles are included.
Board moderator. Product List [DriveThruRPG]: Blood Path [Legend]; Cosmopolite [Traveller]; Castrobancla [Traveller]
PeteN
Shrew
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:48 pm

Re: Attacking with Animate (Substance)

Postby PeteN » Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:53 am

Tathas wrote:Only to find that the hero is sorely outmatched in Unarmed skill, the sorcerer reaches out and grapples with our hero, who vainly tries to break free. But it is no use and the evil sorcerer quickly wrestles him to submission. The sorcerer sits back and thinks again how his long hours of practicing rolling boulders around has served him in the end.

This sounds absurd to me.
Alex has the right of this. You use your Unarmed or relevant combat style skill. There are two reasons for this.

1) Knowing how to do something is not part of the spell. For example, say I was a nine year old with a phenomenal 'Play with Remote Control Vehicle' skill but only a basic 'Drive' skill. Now if somebody wired up my dad's BMW with remote actuators, I'd do a reasonable job of making it go backwards, forwards and turn the steering wheel... but I still wouldn't know bugger all about how to really drive a car - as I have no experience about anticipating other drivers, how to control the momentum of the car, skid handling, using gears to slow, effects of road surfaces, uses of maintaining engine revs or keeping them low to reduce torque etc, etc. So whilst the material is moving about due to mental commands, you still need to how to do it.

2) The spell grants a lot of 'effect' already due to its flexibility of purpose and the inherent nature of the animated material. Making it substitute for the need to know a skill turns it into a double powered magic.

Thus the next time the hero turns up for a final showdown, try simply blocking your front door with a wall of stone, opening a pit beneath his feet or collapsing the entire tower upon his head whilst you cheerfully walk away to plan your next nefarious deed. Perhaps, even learning how to fight without weapons properly, just like those Black Seers of Yimsha... ;)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests