'Evade' skill in combat?

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danskmacabre
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Re: 'Evade' skill in combat?

Postby danskmacabre » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:14 pm

RangerDan wrote: Agreed completely on the limbs vs. shields, I was making a comparison referring to RAW, not so much real-world realism.
NPS, it was more of an anecdote to the conversation. I added the proviso that it's a pain to maintain that in an RPG.
Now I have the parrying rules with limbs clear, as an RPG it makes more sense and more manageable to trying to find a realistic solution.
And perhaps Vikings - aware of their opponent's excellent parrying skills - found it most expedient to use the Damage Weapon CM as frequently as possible :)
Heh, perhaps!
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Re: 'Evade' skill in combat?

Postby RangerDan » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:39 pm

RangerDan wrote:Even then I'd go through a couple of shields in a re-enactment season and that's with pulled blows.
Totally unrelated to the ongoing discussion but this reenactment business does fascinate me.

How do you avoid - you know - not killing each other by accident?
You're pulling blows? Blunting weapons?
I imagine that if things get heated or competitive you might not pull your blow as much as you should? :P
Does that even exist? Competitive reenactment?
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Re: 'Evade' skill in combat?

Postby danskmacabre » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:48 pm

RangerDan wrote: How do you avoid - you know - not killing each other by accident?
There's rigorous training, tests etc. you have to pass the tests with the combat trainers at controlled sessions called "Battle Practice" before you can fight tin a real show/battle.
You're pulling blows? Blunting weapons?
Yes, pulled blows, blunted weapons, you taught to not hit certain locations like groin, head, centre of the back, knee, elbows and so on.
Basically anything that can't take a hit.
I imagine that if things get heated or competitive you might not pull your blow as much as you should? :P
It happens, but then when it does, depending on the severity, it could be as simple as an apology and being told off to offending person or as much as to be thrown out of the society with a life ban.
I've never seen anyone killed or anything like that, but if that did happen I'd imagine the police would get involved. But in the 15 odd years I did it for I never saw that happen.
The worst I've seen is someone got shot in the eye with a rubber tipped arrow. He lost his eye.

It's also worth noting that one/some of the game designers of Legend based the on a recreation of re-enactment combat (I.E. they are Re-enactors themselves.)

Does that even exist? Competitive reenactment?
Yes it does. mainly I've done competitive re-enactment of the Viking period. Although sometimes we get hired to to Scripted battles as well.
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Re: 'Evade' skill in combat?

Postby Dan True » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:29 pm

RangerDan wrote: Does that even exist? Competitive reenactment?
Yup. There's both "theater" reenactment, where we reenact for show and more sports-like competetive historical weapon fights.

I fight Sword&Buckler once a week, just as if I was playing soccer etc.

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Re: 'Evade' skill in combat?

Postby danskmacabre » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:54 pm

Dan True wrote:
RangerDan wrote: Does that even exist? Competitive reenactment?
Yup. There's both "theater" reenactment, where we reenact for show and more sports-like competetive historical weapon fights.
I fight Sword&Buckler once a week, just as if I was playing soccer etc.
- Dan
When I did re-enactment (I stopped a year or so back) I used Broadsword and Round shield

And Handaxe and Shield

And Langseaxe and shield (or just a Langseaxe)
A langseaxe is like a long knife.


I will probably get back into it when we've moved over to Australia (which will happen around Summer)
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Re: 'Evade' skill in combat?

Postby Mixster » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:09 pm

danskmacabre wrote: When Vikings had duels, they had a right to use 3 shields in a duel. which goes to show, shields get trashed quickly.
It bears to mention that viking shields, while angled, weren't leather or iron covered like many later (or even earlier) shields.

I'd think you'd sooner break the arm behind it than you'd break a hoplon shield. I know bronze isn't the hardest material, but making holes in clear bronze plates is pretty hard I'd imagine.
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Re: 'Evade' skill in combat?

Postby Mankcam » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:28 pm

This talk of real-life combat is fascinating, but on the topic of game mechanics 'Evade', I'ld look at doing whatever springs to mind, and let the rules follow.

If you are unarmed, than Evade is likely to be a good option, not only to get out of the way, but perhaps to a location that you can become armed (with an improvisational weapon, for instance).

If there is no cover or no objects nearby then I'ld allow a character to parry unarmed. Yes, the results will be bad, but as previously mentioned a limb wound is better than a nasty slash to the to the temple or neck.

It's what would happen in real-life to some extent as a natural reaction would be to protect your vitals by blocking with your arms. Things never go well with unarmed vs armed though, unless you're Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan. Even they would likely Evade first to grab an object they could use for a improvisational weapon, which would lead into a colourful cinematic fight scene.
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Re: 'Evade' skill in combat?

Postby danskmacabre » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:10 am

Speaking of parries, evades and so on with limbs.
Is there any system for unarmed martial arts for Legend out there?

Perhaps a Martial art based on Asian unarmed martial arts could offer more flexibility. It could be applied as an advanced skill or something.
But maybe it needs it's own CAs and rules. It'd be cool to have throws, trips etc available as CAs.
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Re: 'Evade' skill in combat?

Postby RangerDan » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:09 am

danskmacabre wrote:Speaking of parries, evades and so on with limbs.
Is there any system for unarmed martial arts for Legend out there?

Perhaps a Martial art based on Asian unarmed martial arts could offer more flexibility. It could be applied as an advanced skill or something.
But maybe it needs it's own CAs and rules. It'd be cool to have throws, trips etc available as CAs.
I don't actually think you'd need to engineer Legend much to get viable Asian-style martial arts rules.
It might be simplest to add a number of Heroic Abilities to do what you want (either as a passive bonus or at a cost of 1 MP per usage, like chi). Some ideas:
Iron Fist: Increase the size of unarmed strikes.
Cobra Strike: You can attack immediately after performing an Evade.
Chi Strike: You ignore your opponent's SIZ for determining knockback.
Topple the Giant: You may attempt a Trip CM against an opponent on a tied succesful defense.
Flying Fists: Gain a bonus CA as if dual-wielding.

I think that by adding heroic abilities you basically keep the core system intact and can add or remove "rules" as needed if things go off-balance.

If you really want to get into the spirit, you could create different martial arts "schools" as separate Advanced Skills. Certain heroic skills would only be available to particular schools, differentiating their style of fighting (and perhaps philosophy). So the pacifist Crouching Crane school know Topple the Giant while the aggressive Cobra-Kai know Iront Fist and (obviously) Cobra Strike.
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Re: 'Evade' skill in combat?

Postby Mankcam » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:44 am

I'd go with Roger Dan's idea about using Heroic Abilities to display cool martial arts techniques for Legend. It fits the system and it's got a wide scope for customization.

You'ld have to design some Fighting Style packages, and allocate different Hero Point costs to different techniques, perhaps starting at a lower-than-usual Hero Point cost for basic signature moves. I'd design it like RQ Cults where you have requirements at different levels and also allow skill access through the Fighting Style.

Then add Heroic Abilities instead of Spells. Perhaps for a more wuxia setting, you could even have magic as a third tier, although the spells would have to be instaneous and more akin to super powers than magic.

But using the Cult/Faction rules is the way to go I reckon, encompassing skills and Heroic Abilities.
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Re: 'Evade' skill in combat?

Postby danskmacabre » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:28 pm

I vaguely remember Loz created some Martial arts CAs, but no longer have a link for it.
I wonder how that compares to this idea...
Could be very interesting.
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Re: 'Evade' skill in combat?

Postby sdavies2720 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:59 am

Mankcam wrote:I'd go with Roger Dan's idea about using Heroic Abilities to display cool martial arts techniques for Legend. It fits the system and it's got a wide scope for customization.

You'ld have to design some Fighting Style packages, and allocate different Hero Point costs to different techniques, perhaps starting at a lower-than-usual Hero Point cost for basic signature moves. I'd design it like RQ Cults where you have requirements at different levels and also allow skill access through the Fighting Style.

Then add Heroic Abilities instead of Spells. Perhaps for a more wuxia setting, you could even have magic as a third tier, although the spells would have to be instaneous and more akin to super powers than magic.

But using the Cult/Faction rules is the way to go I reckon, encompassing skills and Heroic Abilities.
There are a lot of great martial arts ideas that can be borrowed from Dragon Lines by Alephtar Games (available from DriveThruRPG, and Cubicle7). It's from the BRP family of games, and has a bunch of styles. It doesn't include Heroic Abilities (BRP doesn't have them), so MA moves are tied to skills and advancement. Still, it's a fertile book for adaptation.

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Re: 'Evade' skill in combat?

Postby froggymojo » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:07 am

Well, I'm glad I started this thread, seeing how it has led to some very interesting exchanges. :wink:
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Re: 'Evade' skill in combat?

Postby soltakss » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:01 pm

sdavies2720 wrote:There are a lot of great martial arts ideas that can be borrowed from Dragon Lines by Alephtar Games (available from DriveThruRPG, and Cubicle7). It's from the BRP family of games, and has a bunch of styles. It doesn't include Heroic Abilities (BRP doesn't have them), so MA moves are tied to skills and advancement. Still, it's a fertile book for adaptation.
I'd just translate most of them into Heroic Abilities - they should work really well.
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