Legend Preview/RQII Changes

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MongooseMatt
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Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby MongooseMatt » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:29 am

We have just posted some free-to-download PDFs for the new Legend RPG, due for release later this month. They include;

* A preview of the core rulebook
* The Character Sheet
* A complete list of changes made from RuneQuest II to the new system, ensuring compatibility with your existing collection of books.

You can find all of these at;

UK Site: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpgs/ ... ebook.html
US Site: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/us/rp ... ebook.html
Matthew Sprange

Mongoose Publishing
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com
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Da Boss
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby Da Boss » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:47 am

Thanks for that - interesting:

On Combat Actions - Suprised did not go down the route that most GMs and players seem have gone down which is to ensure that the off hand item is used and its not jsut a way fo generating (an often vital) CA by holding a penknife, sharp twig or similar.

There are number of different ways of writing it clearly - I use this:

Dual Wielding: A player may claim an additional CA for a second weapon, shield or “useful” item in his or her off hand, but the extra CA must involve that weapon, shield or item. A character picking up a second item immediately gains the additional CA, but must, as normal use it with the item they have just began to wield. If a Character loses the item during the round, they loose the bonus CA unless they have already used the weapon or item that granted it.

Having this in place does, I feel, helps both GMs and players........especially in forstalling arguments.
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby danskmacabre » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:57 am

Thanks for the update. Nice that I won't HAVE to buy Legend to update my MRQ2 rules.
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby cthulhudarren » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:26 pm

Nice, thanks for the preview. I will preorder the book now as my long-time RPG group is going just starting up a MRQ2 game!
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby Prime_Evil » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:59 pm

The preview is very interesting. I can't wait to see the book itself!

One question though - the copyright notice at the beginning of the rulebook doesn't specify the license for third-party Legend products and there isn't any reference to the OGL in the table of contents. Is Mongoose going to publish full details of the compatibility licence soon?

I'm dying to start work on some new material for the game...
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby Piperdog » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:03 pm

The preview of the book looks clean and concise. I am looking forward to this book in a big way. The character sheet, on the other hand, looks even worse than the official RQII one. lol. Oh well. I make my own sheets anyway. You can't please everyone, right? :wink:
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby danskmacabre » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:14 pm

Regarding Charging in Legend.
So if Opponent A with say 4 CAs attacks Opponent B who has say 4 CAs.

A charges in, using all his CAs, bar 1.

B has 2 choices, face the attack (he might get an attack in first due to the weapon, but lets say the charger attacks first). B Cannot Parry? Is that right?
So when the charger rolls his attack in this case, B automatically counts are a failed parry?

B can also Evade. If he makes it, the charger has completley missed. If he fails the Evade, he counts as defenceless (meaning counts as an automatic parry failure for the attack?)

OK, so lets say he evades successfully.

B, who has succesfully evaded has used one CA to evade and has 3 CAs left.
A who charged has no actions left for the rest of the round.

It looks like A can stay engaged with B and receive 2 attacks, as B has evaded, his next CA can't be an attack, but his remaining 2 CAs COULD be attacks.

Alternatively, A can continue on (assuming B lets him) and can't be opportunity attacked by B as it's a charge and probably will move well out of B range due to charging speed anyway.

If B decides to NOT let A run through (CAN he do this when he's EVADED?) B will get 2 more attacks this round and A cannot parry as he has no CAs left?

Is all this right?
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby torus » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:18 pm

That looks great. Nice clean design. Looking forward to this arriving.
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby Dan True » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:02 am

danskmacabre wrote: B, who has succesfully evaded has used one CA to evade and has 3 CAs left.
A who charged has no actions left for the rest of the round.
No, as this would pretty much make it suicide to charge. The charge only hits home on the last CA as far as I understand it - so B can do something (perhaps run away from the charging maniac) for a couple of CAs and then on the last one the charge hits home and they spend their last CA hitting each other.

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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby Deleriad » Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:01 am

Dan True wrote:
danskmacabre wrote: B, who has succesfully evaded has used one CA to evade and has 3 CAs left.
A who charged has no actions left for the rest of the round.
No, as this would pretty much make it suicide to charge. The charge only hits home on the last CA as far as I understand it - so B can do something (perhaps run away from the charging maniac) for a couple of CAs and then on the last one the charge hits home and they spend their last CA hitting each other.

- Dan
That's not what the preview says and is explicitly not the case in the example of play given. The charge hits on whatever CA the charger gets there. However, if the defender successfully evades then the charger can keep moving.

As I understand it, there are basically three speeds in Legend.
Normal speed - max movement per round = Move score; max move per Action = move
Ramming speed - max move per round = 3*Move; max move per action = 2*MOV
Sprinting - max per round = 5*mov; max per action = 3*mov

When charging or sprinting you have to spend all your actions bar 1 on moving.

So if charger charges defender then charger could move 16m each action. Say you start 5m away and the opponent evades then (possibly) you could simply continue your movement another 11m to end up 11m away, meaning that your opponent can't get you this round anyway (as they can't move more than 8m unless they declare a charge or sprint at the beginning of the round).

What I don't know is whether the charge attack uses up the 'other' CA or is part of the charge action (as RQII). E.g. Bob with 3 CAs and a row of goblins, each one 5m from the next.
Action 1: charge 5m, attack goblin 1
Action 2: charge 5m, attack goblin 2
Action 3: charge 5m, attack goblin 3 (or move 5m and attack) OR

action 1: charge 5m, action 2 attack (both done at the same time)
action 3: charge 5m (but no attack possible).

I presume the first is correct.
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby gran_orco » Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:38 am

Deleriad wrote: What I don't know is whether the charge attack uses up the 'other' CA or is part of the charge action (as RQII). E.g. Bob with 3 CAs and a row of goblins, each one 5m from the next.
Action 1: charge 5m, attack goblin 1
Action 2: charge 5m, attack goblin 2
Action 3: charge 5m, attack goblin 3 (or move 5m and attack) OR

action 1: charge 5m, action 2 attack (both done at the same time)
action 3: charge 5m (but no attack possible).

I presume the first is correct.
No one is correct. Charge action has been removed from legend. Charge is now a "full-round manoeuvre", so it must be declared when the character first acts in the round. In addition, all the character’s Combat Actions but one must be spent on Move.
Therefore, you can move and attack each action, or declare a charge and do ONE attack, using others actions moving only.

But I do not know if you must attack in the last action. I think that you can attack in any one, by RAW
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby danskmacabre » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:29 am

gran_orco wrote: No one is correct. Charge action has been removed from legend. Charge is now a "full-round manoeuvre", so it must be declared when the character first acts in the round. In addition, all the character’s Combat Actions but one must be spent on Move.
Therefore, you can move and attack each action, or declare a charge and do ONE attack, using others actions moving only.

But I do not know if you must attack in the last action. I think that you can attack in any one, by RAW
I do realise that a charge is a full round action now and did state he'd get his charge and an attack and that's it.

However, this being the case, surely the defender (lets say he has 4 CAs) can just EVADE.
and be left with 3 actions (the next action can't be an attack) but he still gets 2 more attacks after that?

According to the example, the defender COULD just allow the charger to run past, but he can also force him to stop and engage and then the defender gets 2 attacks, which the charger cannot parry, as he has no CAs left.

To me this means that charging is VERY dangerous, sure I'm assuming that the defender succeeds in an opposed evade, but that's entirely possible.
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby Deleriad » Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:08 pm

The problem is I don't know what it means that "all actions bar one must be spent on move."

I don't know if the actual attack part of a charge comes for free as part of the charge movement or not. E.g. I have 4 CAs. I'm 4m from someone. I charge as my first action. On my SR I hit and say I kill the opponent and knock him to one side.

Does this mean I have:
(1) used two actions in one (move and attack) or
(2) made one charge/move action?

If it's (2) I have made one charge/move action then this means that I still have 20m of movement left, two actions that I must spend on move and 1 that I can spend on anything. As charge/move by definition is a move then I can still charge two more people if I have the movement left and, if I still haven't used my "spend on anything action" then I could use it to attack for a 4th time.

I think (2) is the intent of the rules. That would mean ironically that I can make a maximum of 3 attacks for the rest of the round but a maximum of only one parry.

Alternately, my opponent, for argument's sake, is 5m away and evades then the very worst thing I can do is stop and fight because what happens is this.
Me charge, miss. 3 CAs left each
Him, move and attack (engaged), me parry 2 CAs left each.
me. Can't do anything as I can't move without disengaging but the only action I can take is move.
Him. Free hit
Him Free hit.

On the other hand. Same scenario.
I charge 5m, he evades I use some more of my movement for the action to end up 9m away. (3 CAs left each)
He moves 8m towards me but can't attack. I do nothing. (me 3, him 2)
I jog on the spot using a move action (me 2, him 2)
He has no movement left so does nothing. I jog on the spot using the 'other action' (me 1 him 1)
I charge, if he evades I run past again ending up 9m away.

Basically if someone keeps evading you just run past, turn around and do it again.

Finally as far as I can see, you're still not allowed to parry a charge for some reason. So, a goblin charges me with a stone in its hand. I have a hoplite shield. I can evade or I can attack with my shield but I can't parry with my shield.

Finally, finally. It's action 1. My opponent is 15m away and starts to charge. There's no response called "run away" as he will reach me before its my turn to act.

As far as I can see, the charge fix hasn't actually fixed anything. It seems mostly to have spelled out what the problems are. I do notice as well that the example of combat assumes that there is a binding "statement of intent" from each player at the beginning of each round, something that doesn't occur in RQII and the author doesn't seem to realise that you can freely abort parries. This means either that these are undocumented changes to the rules or that the author didn't realise either or these things.
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby danskmacabre » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:26 pm

Deleriad wrote:The problem is I don't know what it means that "all actions bar one must be spent on move."
I don't know if the actual attack part of a charge comes for free as part of the charge movement or not. E.g. I have 4 CAs. I'm 4m from someone. I charge as my first action. On my SR I hit and say I kill the opponent and knock him to one side.
Does this mean I have:
(1) used two actions in one (move and attack) or
(2) made one charge/move action?
As far as I can see, if you charge someone, you use ALL your CAs just to charge. your remaining CA is to actually hit an opponent.
After that you have NO MORE actions for the rest of the round, although you can still move your full charge movement past the defender ASSUMING the defender is not capable of blocking you (as he has an option to stop you running past).
but you can't attack anyone else.
The point at what you hit is calculated on the distance you have to run to charge the defender.
so if your charge movement divided amongst your FULL initial CAs means you hit on where your 2nd CA would have been, then that's when it happens.



As far as I can see, the charge fix hasn't actually fixed anything. It seems mostly to have spelled out what the problems are. I do notice as well that the example of combat assumes that there is a binding "statement of intent" from each player at the beginning of each round, something that doesn't occur in RQII and the author doesn't seem to realise that you can freely abort parries. This means either that these are undocumented changes to the rules or that the author didn't realise either or these things.
Honestly I think making a change a full round action just doesn't make sense.
What I do ATM is as follows:

* You need 4 metres run up to charge.
* A charge and attack is one combined CA.
* The defender can evade as already stated.
* IF the defender evades (successfully or not), they can't stop the charger from running past (as they can't attack after an evade anyway, so why should they be allowed to stop him?).
* The defender can't parry as stated in RAW
* Evading only uses 1 CA
* If you want to charge someone greater than your usual movement allowance (typically 8metres) you use a CA per 8 metres until you hit the defender, who can of course move out of the way behind someone else or an obstacle or laterally more than 4 metres to render the charge harmless (IE the charger will have to restate his charge and repoint himself if he can).

I would also houserule that you can't charge someone or something more than 2 size increments bigger than you.
For example a Hobbit (small ) can't charge someone with a hoplite shield (huge I beileve?)

I'm not sure I agree with the "Can't parry" rule, but I'll run with it for a while.

Until there's some charge rules that makes sense, I'll stick with that.
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby Deleriad » Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:53 pm

danskmacabre wrote: As far as I can see, if you charge someone, you use ALL your CAs just to charge. your remaining CA is to actually hit an opponent.
The problem is that it's not clear if this is what the rules mean or not and the example of play doesn't indicate the answer either. Without a clarification from the author we have to pretty much guess or else use our own preferred system.

The example given for sprint shows that someone with 3 CAs could sprint for 2 CAs and then attack for one CA with the "non-move" CA. If your interpretation is right then something else doesn't make sense.

Human. 3 CAs. Move 8m. 30m from an opponent.
Can sprint for 2 CAs then attack for one CA with no charge bonus.
Can charge (i.e. run more slowly) for 2 CAs then attack for one CA and do more damage by running more slowly.

Unless I'm missing something, which is not unknown of, then I think I'm going to be ignoring the new movement system.
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby gran_orco » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:14 pm

Deleriad wrote: Human. 3 CAs. Move 8m. 30m from an opponent.
Can sprint for 2 CAs then attack for one CA with no charge bonus.
Can charge (i.e. run more slowly) for 2 CAs then attack for one CA and do more damage by running more slowly.

Unless I'm missing something, which is not unknown of, then I think I'm going to be ignoring the new movement system.
You can attack only if you charge, not if you are sprinting. Read carefully.
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby Deleriad » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:11 pm

gran_orco wrote: You can attack only if you charge, not if you are sprinting. Read carefully.
If you read the example of movement given in the charges document, the character sprints for two actions then attacks (with a sling) on his third action.
legend changes page 9 wrote:For his first combat action, Alaric moves 16m. For his second, he moves 16m. He still has one Combat Action left, and as he has spent all but one of his Combat Actions on moving and thus fulfilled the requirements for Sprinting, he can spend this last Combat Action to move 8m and make a sling attack on his foes.
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby BluSponge » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:41 pm

Ok, for the clueless of us out here, what were the previous rules for charging? What's the thinking behind using all but one of your CAs in a charge attack? Wouldn't it be dependent on the distance closed?

Honestly curious, as the rule seems kinda odd from my perspective.

Tom
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby gran_orco » Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:16 pm

Deleriad wrote:
gran_orco wrote: You can attack only if you charge, not if you are sprinting. Read carefully.
If you read the example of movement given in the charges document, the character sprints for two actions then attacks (with a sling) on his third action.
legend changes page 9 wrote:For his first combat action, Alaric moves 16m. For his second, he moves 16m. He still has one Combat Action left, and as he has spent all but one of his Combat Actions on moving and thus fulfilled the requirements for Sprinting, he can spend this last Combat Action to move 8m and make a sling attack on his foes.
Charging (see page XX): The character moves a total of 3x his normal Movement and
attacks along the way; sprinting does not give you this option. In the exemple, although it says that Alaric is sprinting, he is moving 8x2=16m per action, not 24 as he could do with a sprint manoeuvre.
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Re: Legend Preview/RQII Changes

Postby Deleriad » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:07 am

gran_orco wrote:Charging (see page XX): The character moves a total of 3x his normal Movement and attacks along the way; sprinting does not give you this option. In the exemple, although it says that Alaric is sprinting, he is moving 8x2=16m per action, not 24 as he could do with a sprint manoeuvre.
I'm afraid that's not what the example shows. Remember
Charge speed is up to 3*mov per round. A human (mov 8) can move a maximum of 24m in a round while charging.
Sprint speed is up to 5*mov per round. A human (mov 8) can move a maximum of 40m in a round while sprinting.

Nowhere in the rules given does it say "you cannot attack while sprinting." Indeed the example shown explicitly shows a round where a character sprints and attacks.

Quoted (my bold) from the example of play.
Alaric’s turn to act, he declares that he will spend this round Sprinting. Alaric’s movement allowance for this round increases to 40m (5x his normal movement of 8m). For his first combat action, Alaric moves 16m. For his second, he moves 16m. He still has one Combat Action left, and as he has spent all but one of his Combat Actions on moving and thus fulfilled the requirements for Sprinting, he can spend this last Combat Action to move 8m and make a sling attack on his foes.
Going by RAW in the changes document. A character with 3 actions could:
Action 1: sprint.
Action 2: attack.
Action 3: sprint.***

Finally, the example given shows the character sprinting a total of 32m then moving another 8m and attacking for a total movement of 40m.* i.e. the character was sprinting.

*Other questions: in RQII the armour penalty affected your maximum sprint speed in a round. E.g. if your Armour penalty was -6 you could sprint a max of 34m. Does that still apply in Legend? If so does it apply to only sprinting or both sprinting and charging?

**In a charge: is the charge attack included in the movement action or separate from it?
E.g. character with 2 CAs wishes to charge an opponent 5m away. Does this cost him 1 action with 1 action left or 2 actions (1 for the move, 1 for the charge attack.)? The example of combat seems to imply that the charge attack is part of a move action.

***One irony here is that someone who runs faster and attacks at the end of the move does less damage than someone who runs more slowly and makes charging noises.

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