Magic of Legend

[Jujitsudave]

Of course I'd find tweaking magic in MRQ2 to fit S&S far, far easier than I would if I were using other systems. Happily you seem to too.

I'm with you there. The system as a whole is utterly brilliant; So much so that I don't need to change to any other ruleset, presumably ever again. My concern is with magic but like you say, the system is flexible and can be tailored to one's needs and expectations.

This is something that WotC didn't get through their heads when they made that 4E DnD system which stripped all sense of creativity from their game like they had for 3E, but that is another topic.

[Redcrow]

Of course I'd find tweaking magic in MRQ2 to fit S&S far, far easier than I would if I were using other systems.

Absolutely! TBH I can't recall a game system in recent memory that I haven't made some tweaks to here and there but beyond any doubt MRQ2 has been the easiest and required the fewest tweaks to get things to suit my preferences. For now and until something better comes along (RQ6 maybe?) it remains my go to system for fantasy.

[Loz]

But in the real world we have dedicated forensics experts and homicide detectives. In many low magic settings there is unlikely to be a dedicated force of magical detectives and forensic experts in every city to find and apprehend the suspect.

Someone should write 'CSI: Fantasy' to address this very gap.

[Redcrow]

Someone should write 'CSI: Fantasy' to address this very gap.

I nominate you!

[Loz]

Someone should write 'CSI: Fantasy' to address this very gap.

I nominate you!

I'm not up for election. I have other duties to perform.

[soltakss]

But in the real world we have dedicated forensics experts and homicide detectives. In many low magic settings there is unlikely to be a dedicated force of magical detectives and forensic experts in every city to find and apprehend the suspect.

Someone should write 'CSI: Fantasy' to address this very gap.

RQ: Cadfael would fill that gap very well, I'd think.

[Dan True]

But in the real world we have dedicated forensics experts and homicide detectives. In many low magic settings there is unlikely to be a dedicated force of magical detectives and forensic experts in every city to find and apprehend the suspect.

Someone should write 'CSI: Fantasy' to address this very gap.

Eberron

And I nominate Loz for just about anything...

[DamonJynx]

Of course I'd find tweaking magic in MRQ2 to fit S&S far, far easier than I would if I were using other systems. Happily you seem to too.

I'm with you there. The system as a whole is utterly brilliant; So much so that I don't need to change to any other ruleset, presumably ever again. My concern is with magic but like you say, the system is flexible and can be tailored to one's needs and expectations.

This is something that WotC didn't get through their heads when they made that 4E DnD system which stripped all sense of creativity from their game like they had for 3E, but that is another topic.

I agree 100%. When you take in the Rune and Summoning magic from Elric you have Magic to suit virtually any style of fantasy role-playing IMO. This system is the only one I'll run from now on. I actually asked one of the other guys if he'd mind DM'ing a game (I meant Elric, but I think he wants to run a generic game using the core rules) so I could play instead of GM'ing the whole time.

[Piperdog]

I realized today that there are many spells that I would like to see in the Legend core books. I noticed a big lack of elemental spells in RQII; a series of progressively complex spells that focus on an element, like fire, earth, water, air, metal, etc. would be cool. For those that want to be a pyromancer, for example, there are very limited fire based spells. I flipped through my old Spell Law from Rolemaster and really like different spell lists (Fire Law, Light Law, Ice Law, etc). I am thinking of doing something similar for Grimoires (Grimoire of Fire for example).

I would like to spells reorganized by type as well. Elemental spells, Detection spells, etc. Gurps does a very thorough (perhaps too much so) job of organizing spells. There are even rules on learning certain spells before others, creating prerequisites in each category. You have to learn Sense Fire before you can learn Create Fire, then you can go on to learn Shape Fire and then on to spells like Fireball and then Explosive Fireball. The complex spells can never exceed the ability of the foundational spells. I think Gurps is a bit too complex, but the general idea of this is good, although I am not sure how this idea would translate to Legend.

[BluSponge]

A bit off-topic. I was looking over the Necromantic Arts book and, judging from the spell descriptions, it looks as though it was written for the previous edition of MGRQ. How have those of you using this resource in your games dealt with this, or do you just handwave it with no noticeable effect.

Back on topic, and Elementalist style of magic would be nice to see, though I see no reason it has to be overly complex. I don't see why it would have to be graded where the other styles of magic are not. That is, you have to learn to cast "flame finger" before you can cast "fireball."

I would also like to see something of a "Dark Arts" style of magic, involving pacts with demons for spell power. I'm envisioning a sort of hybrid between Spirit Magic and Divine Magic here, with maybe a dash of Elric Sorcery for flavor.

Tom

[Prime_Evil]

A bit off-topic. I was looking over the Necromantic Arts book and, judging from the spell descriptions, it looks as though it was written for the previous edition of MGRQ. How have those of you using this resource in your games dealt with this, or do you just handwave it with no noticeable effect.

Necromantic Arts was originally written for MRQ I, but was hastily updated to MRQ II before publication. It's a pity that the conversion didn't update everything seamlessly, but there's still some good material in the book - provided that you are willing to update some of it yourself.

I would also like to see something of a "Dark Arts" style of magic, involving pacts with demons for spell power. I'm envisioning a sort of hybrid between Spirit Magic and Divine Magic here, with maybe a dash of Elric Sorcery for flavor.

Tom

It remains to be seen whether the forthcoming Blood Magic book will cover some of the topics necessary to build a "Dark Arts" style - we know that it contains rules for sacrificial magic and a couple of other useful topics

[PhilHibbs]

I realized today that there are many spells that I would like to see in the Legend core books. I noticed a big lack of elemental spells in RQII; a series of progressively complex spells that focus on an element, like fire, earth, water, air, metal, etc. would be cool. For those that want to be a pyromancer, for example, there are very limited fire based spells. I flipped through my old Spell Law from Rolemaster and really like different spell lists (Fire Law, Light Law, Ice Law, etc). I am thinking of doing something similar for Grimoires (Grimoire of Fire for example).

Big lists of spells work for systems with levels, but in RQ without levels you don't need nearly as many spells. "Set things on fire" is all you need, really, and your Grimire skill tells you just how on fire you can set things. Or maybe my imagination is just a bit drained at the moment.

[Prime_Evil]

Big lists of spells work for systems with levels, but in RQ without levels you don't need nearly as many spells. "Set things on fire" is all you need, really, and your Grimire skill tells you just how on fire you can set things. Or maybe my imagination is just a bit drained at the moment.

That is true to some extent. However, a magic system that consists of nothing but generic game mechanics can be very bland and unsatisfying. I think that the fluff is just as important as the crunch when it comes to magic. Flavour is important when it comes to magic! Speaking personally, I would like the rules to be as evocative as possible without sacrificing precise game mechanics.

[PhilHibbs]

That is true to some extent. However, a magic system that consists of nothing but generic game mechanics can be very bland and unsatisfying. I think that the fluff is just as important as the crunch when it comes to magic. Flavour is important when it comes to magic! Speaking personally, I would like the rules to be as evocative as possible without sacrificing precise game mechanics.

I agree. The feeling that you get when you can say "Wow, I can cast Wings of Fire now! Watch out anyone below, here comes burning death from above!" is pretty good. You don't get that with RuneQuest, because if Wings of Fire is in your Grimoire, then you can cast it right from the start. It's just that the fiery wings don't do very much. Same with Divine Magic as well. Spells like Truesword are even worse for that, because it has no scaling factor - it does what it does, and never gets any better.

[Mugen]

I do like all 4 magic systems and don't want to see any of them scrapped.

Nevertheless, there are some things I'd like to be changed :

Divine Magic
-Replace Dedicated POW with "Divine Magic points", so that Priest get all their MPs for Common Magic and spiritual conflict.
-Use Magnitude for every spell.

Sorcery
-I'd like to see the MP cost handled in a very different way. I don't like the fact Manipulations can't be maxed all at once and the more MPs you spend, the less potent those get.

[Prime_Evil]

I agree. The feeling that you get when you can say "Wow, I can cast Wings of Fire now! Watch out anyone below, here comes burning death from above!" is pretty good. You don't get that with RuneQuest, because if Wings of Fire is in your Grimoire, then you can cast it right from the start. It's just that the fiery wings don't do very much. Same with Divine Magic as well. Spells like Truesword are even worse for that, because it has no scaling factor - it does what it does, and never gets any better.

The approach taken by Mongoose seems to be that the magic system presented in the core rules is a loose framework that needs to be adapted for each campaign world in order to add flavour appropriate to that particular setting. The way that the magic system is implemented in Glorantha is different to the way it is implemented in Elric - which is different again to the way that it is implemented in Deus Vult. If this is the case, then the Legend system is crying out for a book that tells the GM how to adapt the magic system to the needs of their own campaign.

[PhilHibbs]

I suppose you could have spells that have a minimum, er, what's the term, oh that's right there isn't one... a minimum Potency (which Is what I call skill/10). So Pillar of Fire could have a minimum Potency of 5, with damage figured based on the Potency minus 4. Some spells have a natural minimum anyway - Wings of Fire could affect 2 SIZ per Potency, so an average person can cast it if they can get Potency 7, and it could do damage to anyone you land on based on additional Potency beyond that.

[Mugen]

I suppose you could have spells that have a minimum, er, what's the term, oh that's right there isn't one... a minimum Potency (which Is what I call skill/10).

As for myself, I call it "Intensity", based on RQ3 terminology.
Anyway, I think you're right, and this... rule thing needs to have a name.

[PhilHibbs]

As for myself, I call it "Intensity", based on RQ3 terminology.
Anyway, I think you're right, and this... rule thing needs to have a name.

It's not quite the same as Intensity, as that was used to determine spell resistance and dismissal, whereas MRQ2 uses Magnitude, so I think a new term is useful.

[Piperdog]

Color me interested Jujitsudave. I have been lamenting the magic for some time.

One of my frustrations is that the spells are spread over the various types of magic, and I would argue, no real method of deciding what spell belongs to sorcery, what spell belongs under divine, etc. I am finding that I want some spells from the divine lists over in the sorcery and vice versa. It would be much saner to simply have a new magic system. If the current magic systems are to be used still, I would opt to list all spells in alphabetical order, then under the descriptions, show the cost/rank/etc needed to cast it if making it divine, making it spirit magic, common magic, or sorcery. Then it can be up to the GM to decide what these spells will be in his campaign, if available at all.

On to the other point you talked about, dealing with sorcery breaking the game at times. I wonder if a cap could be on how many points of magnitude could be used on certain spells? Or perhaps it becomes more dangerous the more you use? This is the approach I started taking. I have a home-brew campaign where magic is very similar to Warhammer and Dragon Age in that it is very dangerous to the caster. I add twice the amount of magnitude to the critical failure range of the spell, and I have my own chart of what happens if it fails. It can end in being possessed by demons, gating a demon in, gating yourself into the abyss, or other catastrophes that center around the spells specific effects. I explain that once they open the flood gates to that amount of power, it is very difficult to control. With this little tweak to the rules, my player with the sorcerer is very scared to use magic at all, and has been using it only in dire emergencies, which is exactly the effect and mood I was trying to convey.