Magic of Legend

Discover the Legend RPG, Mongoose's fantasy game.
Piperdog
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Magic of Legend

Postby Piperdog » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:02 pm

I am hoping that the new Legend launch will have a greatly expanded magic section, or even a whole book dedicated to it. While I am impressed with the magic system for each category, I was a little disappointed in the limited numbers of spells, particularly in the sorcery area.

I am working on my own setting where mages are more elementalists, and can focus on fire, ice, lightning, etc. Also, can anyone explain how to port spells over from common or divine magic to sorcery? I am thinking of getting rid of common magic for my setting and having all common magic be part of the sorcery grimoires. It may be easy, but since this is all new to me, it's a little intimidating.
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Re: Magic of Legend

Postby Dan True » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:26 pm

Piperdog wrote: I am working on my own setting where mages are more elementalists, and can focus on fire, ice, lightning, etc. Also, can anyone explain how to port spells over from common or divine magic to sorcery? I am thinking of getting rid of common magic for my setting and having all common magic be part of the sorcery grimoires. It may be easy, but since this is all new to me, it's a little intimidating.
Well, that would almost cerntainly not work without a major investment of time - and it would be a misunderstanding of how the sorcery system was intended. The beauty of Sorcery is its flexibility. You don't need a Fireball spell, because you can use Animate(Fire), perhaps combined with some other spell that allows you to heat up the air if there's no fire availible (I have added one in my Eberron conversion).

Elementalists that manipulate the elements could be easily made with sorcery, you simply need some base spells:

- Create(Element)
- Animate(Element)
- Break(Element) ?
etc.

Some few simply base spells, which you can then combine to extraordinary effect. You can create almost anything you'd like by breaking it into some sub spells. If it's very base spells, you could house rule that the first manipulation doesn't cost an MP to allow for versatility.

I have added not a few sorcery spells in my conversion. You're free to grab any you'd like.

If you really was forced to port spells to sorcery, there's no standard way of doing it.
For Common magic you should try to generalise the spell, to allow for a variety of sitations. A good example is the Push/Pull common magic spells - you could think "how can this be generalised.. what if I want to move it in other ways?" - and up comes the Animate Sorcery spell.
Divine magic can only be done by nearly inventing the spell from scratch, as divine magic is so... strange ... (not the best word) rules wise. Some spells have tremendous effect per magnitude, some is not even affected by magnitude and other spells are just extremely good.

Other than that, I completely agree in that I hope Legend will have a dedicated magic book, introducing a lot of new spells. Cults of Glorantha does introduce a lot of spells, but many a very Glorantha-like.

- Dan
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Postby taxboy » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:14 pm

There are a heap of spells all over the place, necro rules as well.

I printed off all the various spells, grouped them by type and got my EA to bind them into a basic book.

My players have not e ven looked at it though!,,!!
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Postby msprange » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:41 am

One of the things we certainly want to do is have lots of different forms of magic, that can be plugged and played into whatever settings you wish. If anyone remembers our old D20 Encyclopaedia Arcane line, they will know what I mean...
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Postby Mixster » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:03 pm

I personally hope they tone them down a bit.

IMO, the magics of mRQII (soon to be legend) are way powerful.

Sorcery is such a beautiful system, full of options, but with options usually come versatility, and with versatility comes power.

I don't find the quirkiness that Dan describes the Divine Magic as being. Yeah, some of them aren't based on magnitude, but it doesn't really matter, divine magic all cost one spell slot. So even if some of them are better at low magnitude, they all cost the same.

IMO Divine Magic is easily translatable into Sorcery, just substitute magnitude for per 10% of grimoire skill. Do bear in mind, however, that as a general rule, Divine Magic is much more powerful than sorcery (which they should be, sorcery is much more versatile).

For example, Elemental Summoning, Exchange the reference to magnitude with per 10% sorcery skill and you have one of the best sorcery spells ever (woo, I modify Targets, watch my 6 Earth Elementals rip you apart!).
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Postby DamonJynx » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:21 pm

Definitely going to have to bite the bullet and read the core magic systems properly...

As I GM a lot, I find that magic is a bit of a paradox... it's what makes fantasy role playing what it is, but unforeseen use of magic by clever players can turn hours of work and brilliance into toilet paper! I think that a lot of GM's have a bit of a love-hate relationship with it. Which reminds me...
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Postby Mixster » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:42 pm

DamonJynx wrote:Definitely going to have to bite the bullet and read the core magic systems properly...

As I GM a lot, I find that magic is a bit of a paradox... it's what makes fantasy role playing what it is, but unforeseen use of magic by clever players can turn hours of work and brilliance into toilet paper! I think that a lot of GM's have a bit of a love-hate relationship with it. Which reminds me...
I'm a player though, I wouldn't want to GM in an RPG where the magic is so powerful as this, at least, combat is deadly too.

Also, I haven't even ranted about the Spirit Magic system yet. So I will attempt to not get started on that.
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Postby Dan True » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:03 pm

Mixster wrote: I'm a player though, I wouldn't want to GM in an RPG where the magic is so powerful as this, at least, combat is deadly too.
It's hard as heck ...
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Postby DamonJynx » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:32 am

Mixster wrote:I'm a player though, I wouldn't want to GM in an RPG where the magic is so powerful as this, at least, combat is deadly too.

Also, I haven't even ranted about the Spirit Magic system yet. So I will attempt to not get started on that.
I haven't gone right into the magic for RQ, but D&D magic was OTT as well IMO. And yeah, it can be painful GM'ing stuff like that, but it also makes it fun as well.
Glory is the reward of valour.

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Postby Mixster » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:07 am

DamonJynx wrote:
Mixster wrote:I'm a player though, I wouldn't want to GM in an RPG where the magic is so powerful as this, at least, combat is deadly too.

Also, I haven't even ranted about the Spirit Magic system yet. So I will attempt to not get started on that.
I haven't gone right into the magic for RQ, but D&D magic was OTT as well IMO. And yeah, it can be painful GM'ing stuff like that, but it also makes it fun as well.
I'm in total agreement here. That's why I wrote, "at least combat is deadly too." Most D20 systems have wickedly overpowered magic, and combat that takes long times to kill anything. In runequest, both things kill you in a matter of seconds.
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Postby DamonJynx » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:42 am

Very true. Combat encounters that would take over an hour in D&D, take less than half that in RQ.
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Postby Dan True » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:44 am

DamonJynx wrote:Very true. Combat encounters that would take over an hour in D&D, take less than half that in RQ.
As soon as the players have figured out the CMs... while they do that, combat tend to take quite long in my experience - understandably.

- Dan
Check out my RuneQuest 6 blog!. It now has an adventure idea generator :)

Author of the Eberron for Legend/MRQ2 conversion:
http://runequill.com/files/Eberron_Legend.pdf
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Postby Mixster » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:10 am

Dan True wrote:
DamonJynx wrote:Very true. Combat encounters that would take over an hour in D&D, take less than half that in RQ.
As soon as the players have figured out the CMs... while they do that, combat tend to take quite long in my experience - understandably.

- Dan
IMO Experienced D&D players can, due to spells, effectively end an encounter in just 4 actions or so (one from each player). However, then comes the grinding of 200+ dice rolls to take away the hit points, attempt to dominate their opponents to use for future battles, and so on and so forth.
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Postby Dan True » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:00 pm

Mixster wrote:
Dan True wrote:
DamonJynx wrote:Very true. Combat encounters that would take over an hour in D&D, take less than half that in RQ.
As soon as the players have figured out the CMs... while they do that, combat tend to take quite long in my experience - understandably.

- Dan
IMO Experienced D&D players can, due to spells, effectively end an encounter in just 4 actions or so (one from each player). However, then comes the grinding of 200+ dice rolls to take away the hit points, attempt to dominate their opponents to use for future battles, and so on and so forth.
I have never encountered this, but then again I've never had high level groups or had particular munchkins in my group
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Postby Jujitsudave » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:13 pm

I'd rather they simply scrap the current magic systems and develop a new one. This is the one aspect of Runequest / Legend that I don't really like. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad system, but it seems rather Glorantha-centric and highly powerful and focused on cult organizations. In particular, I'm talking about sorcery which can be a real game breaker. Other elements are ok like Divine and Common Magic, but Spirit Magic is vague and the role of runes is unclear as well.
For a high-magic setting it's good enough, but when you compare it with the sheer excellence of the skill and advancement system and even moreso the unparallelled quality of the combat system, "good enough" isn't good enough. Trying to run a low fantasy setting or even mid fantasy setting is frustrating with this magic system as a character with the right Grimoires (partially the DMs fault I know) can break many entertaining and challenging encounters. The result is to try to match the character's magic skills in a kind of magical "arms race" which can lead to easily changing the magic level of the game.
I notice that even other settings like Vikings as different magic systems and Deus Vult barely touches upon it, leading me to believe that these styles of campaigns don't really match with these magic rules well.
I have already undertaken by myself a more streamlined magic system that can be used with any setting and focuses on balance, playbility and creativity. The characters can still use magic to bypass situations easily, but not without cost so that magic doesn't become somthing abused or negate the usefulness of other, non magic party members.
I have already attempted to make a conversion of the Ars Magica game which I have scrapped. This one is a system that retains a few concepts of Ars Magica but is it's own MRQ2 stand-alone magic system that I am about 70% done with. Hit me up if interested.
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Postby Richard » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:02 pm

Ars Magica is the gold standard of RPG magic systems. A RQ version is doable but would take much more time and care than I have available!

I think the power of sorcery in RQ can be moderate by limiting Grimoires. I have a maximum of 5 spells per Grimoire. The Tomes themselves are also learned texts which, when read allow 1 improvement roll in a related skill per spell. I'll have to wait and see how it pads out in the long run.

The idea of having the entire 'Abiding Book' as a Grimoire is pretty monstrous! Remember you can also limit magic points. If magic point storage is extremely difficult to come by in the game world your sorce.or is limited to their personal magic points. This will greatly increase their reluctance to cast spells.
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Postby Dan True » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:10 pm

Sorcery is pretty powerful - but the sorcerers do tend to run out of MP quite fast. Personally I believe it can be handled - though I have removed Damage Enhancement and Damage Resistance from my game.. they are simply too powerful for my taste. I will probably introduce some less powerful alternatives (damage boost and damage protection - just sorcerer version of bladesharp and protection I think) spells later, but those two are out.

Shapechange and enhance are pretty wild.. but can be handled, as the enemies have access to them also - plus, they can have ways of dispelling the buffs easily.

I don't like Wrack. Not that it's too powerful, but I don't like the style of it continously dealing damage... just doesn't suit me.

Other than that, there are some nasty combos, but they are handleable..

I have also limited sorcerers power level by saying that they recieve their armour penalty * 10 as a penalty to all their sorcery skills. So they tend to be pretty squishy.

- Dan

- Dan
Check out my RuneQuest 6 blog!. It now has an adventure idea generator :)

Author of the Eberron for Legend/MRQ2 conversion:
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Postby Mixster » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:26 pm

Jujitsudave wrote:I'd rather they simply scrap the current magic systems and develop a new one. This is the one aspect of Runequest / Legend that I don't really like. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad system, but it seems rather Glorantha-centric and highly powerful and focused on cult organizations.
Totally agree!
Jujitsudave wrote: In particular, I'm talking about sorcery which can be a real game breaker. Other elements are ok like Divine and Common Magic, but Spirit Magic is vague and the role of runes is unclear as well.
In rather substantial disagreement, yeah the runic part is vague at best. But Spirit magic is pretty simple cut, you can ask for a number of spirits to help you, and they grant different bonuses depending on the thing you ask of them, you need spirit walking to find them, and spirit binding to bind them into you contract. Once you have more spirits, you can use those to help you bind more spirits. And so on and so forth.
Also, I find Spirit Magic MUCH more powerful than sorcery, and I find most creative uses of Divine Magic far overshades sorcery. Where sorcery might be cheap, divine magic is game-breaking in its potency. If you have like 45% in pact (easily attainable for a starting character), you can cast amplify, and then multi-missile to use one day on making a bunch of arrows split into 6 arrows.
Imo Sorcery is weaker, but much more versatile from a single spell than Divine Magic is, divine magic pretty much have a few buttons that are I win in a single situation, you just need to prepare the right one (aphrodisiac and summon elemental are good examples of this).
For a high-magic setting it's good enough, but when you compare it with the sheer excellence of the skill and advancement system and even moreso the unparallelled quality of the combat system, "good enough" isn't good enough. Trying to run a low fantasy setting or even mid fantasy setting is frustrating with this magic system as a character with the right Grimoires (partially the DMs fault I know) can break many entertaining and challenging encounters. The result is to try to match the character's magic skills in a kind of magical "arms race" which can lead to easily changing the magic level of the game.

In total agreement, although, I believe that the other magic systems are even worse than sorcery. Even without the right grimoire, a Spirit Magician can from the get go Bind (in his fetch ofc) a spirit of a predatorial animal, such as a bear, and have it grant himself 2 increases to his damage modifier (making a +0 into +1d4 is quite great, but it doesn't stop here). When combat ensues, he can have his spirit discorporate someone, and without magic to protect them they are pretty much screwed. This calls for even more high magic campaigns, and can't be stopped without removing spirit magic altogether.
I notice that even other settings like Vikings as different magic systems and Deus Vult barely touches upon it, leading me to believe that these styles of campaigns don't really match with these magic rules well.
I haven't read Deus Vult, so I'm only commenting on Vikings. While it seems much more appropriate to the setting, and doesn't have that flashy high magic feel. Viking magicians are also only really opposed by viking magicians. There's a spell that makes you almost impervious to Iron weapons if you write it on a tablet and carry it with you, and the spirit magic in there is also pretty potent.
I have already undertaken by myself a more streamlined magic system that can be used with any setting and focuses on balance, playbility and creativity. The characters can still use magic to bypass situations easily, but not without cost so that magic doesn't become somthing abused or negate the usefulness of other, non magic party members.
I have already attempted to make a conversion of the Ars Magica game which I have scrapped. This one is a system that retains a few concepts of Ars Magica but is it's own MRQ2 stand-alone magic system that I am about 70% done with. Hit me up if interested.
I'm VERY interested. I don't know the Ars Magica, but it seems great.
Ars Magica is the gold standard of RPG magic systems. A RQ version is doable but would take much more time and care than I have available!

I think the power of sorcery in RQ can be moderate by limiting Grimoires. I have a maximum of 5 spells per Grimoire. The Tomes themselves are also learned texts which, when read allow 1 improvement roll in a related skill per spell. I'll have to wait and see how it pads out in the long run.

The idea of having the entire 'Abiding Book' as a Grimoire is pretty monstrous! Remember you can also limit magic points. If magic point storage is extremely difficult to come by in the game world your sorce.or is limited to their personal magic points. This will greatly increase their reluctance to cast spells.
My current sorcerer is doing quite fine with 12 magic points and 10 spells split over 2 grimoires. Although Atm, he is very much a one trick pony (if it weren't for the fact that I recently discovered a new use of the wall spell). He can easily last for around 3-4 encounters in one 12 hour time frame, but he rarely needs to.
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Postby Jujitsudave » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:09 pm

Ars Magica is the gold standard of RPG magic systems. A RQ version is doable but would take much more time and care than I have available!
It truly is. A conversion is very hard (I tried it) and frankly I find it overcomplicated. What I'm putting together is one united magic system that encompasses spirit magic, sorcery and divine and more with the same rules and no need to separate the mechanics. The main concept I'm using from Ars is spontaneous, formulaic and ritual spells.
I think the power of sorcery in RQ can be moderate by limiting Grimoires. I have a maximum of 5 spells per Grimoire.
I thought so too being initially inexperienced in this system and had roughly 2-4 per Grimoire. It still has proved to be overwhelming to the power level of the game.
I'm VERY interested. I don't know the Ars Magica, but it seems great.
Right on. PM me.
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Postby DamonJynx » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:13 am

I agree with Mixsters comments regarding Spirit Magic. That can absolutely be horrendous! We had one Spirit Battle and the PC was screwed before it really began.

I quite like the Runic and Summoning Magic of Elric, whilst still heavily tied into cults (which it doesn't have to be) it is powerful but not to a game breaking degree, well not as far as I've come across so far, at least.
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