Moving again (and again (and again...))

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Deleriad
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Moving again (and again (and again...))

Postby Deleriad » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:30 pm

I've been trying to find a simple way to tie together the movement system without having to use action by action movement and I think I've come up with something that works. It's about 90% identical to the present rules. Comments?

-------
If a character is not currently engaged in combat he can either MOVE or RUN.

MOVE: the character can use a Combat Action to move up to their normal Movement Rating (8m for a human). Once a character has moved this way in a Combat Round they can take no further actions this round but can still take defensive reactions (parry, evade or counter-casting a spell). A MOVE is an ongoing action which means that the character is considered to be moving until what would be their next turn (whether this round or next).

RUN: this action can only be taken on the character’s first turn (i.e. first active SR) of the round. It uses up all of the character’s remaining Combat Actions for the round. The character can run up to its normal movement*5 minus any armour penalty. A RUN is an ongoing action which means that the character is considered to be running until their first turn of the next Combat Round.
------------

Basically what this means is that each round you can move a shortish distance and still defend yourself or you can run a further distance but that prevents you from doing anything else this turn.

Some Spot Rules.

If a character wishes to run a shorter distance than their full amount (e.g. to run into cover behind a wall) then the movement can be assumed to take 1 or 2 complete SR cycles depending on the distance.

Going faster. Optional. On a successful Athletics roll the character can add ½ their normal critical score to any MOVE action or the full critical score for a run action in metres moved.

Charging: a charge is an attack on the RUN therefore uses up all the charger’s CAs for the round. The attack is a ‘freebie’ but all the rules for RUNning must be followed. Depending on the distance charged, the attack will happen on the 2nd or 3rd SR cycle of the round. A charger must run a distance equal to at least their normal MOV in order to get up to speed.

Incidental movement. A character can usually move one to two steps with each action taken. Treat this as 2m for humans and more for larger species. Normal Movement divided by 4 is a reasonable rule of thumb.

Running away from combat. To disengage from Combat requires the Change Distance CA or Change Range CM. Successfully using either allows the character to immediately MOVE (without spending any more CAs) away from the opponent. This can't be done if the character has already MOVEd this round. What if the opponent wants to chase? At this point the game should move into a chase sequence. Start a new round and resolve the chase through opposed Athletics roll with the one who ran away having a head start equal to their Movement rating.
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Postby Vagni » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:01 pm

Looks pretty good and follows the RAW well.

The only suggestion I can make is a minor addition: I would perhaps allow someone running to 'set shield' and give them protection to their shield arm and two adjacent locations, this simulates occasions when a player may want to run to a location under missile fire and cover their head, chest and shield arm, say. Any hits to those locations count as an automatic parry and the missile has to overcome the shield as normal (if it's powerful enough that is). Maybe the shield size should even count as one less for such a tactic.
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Postby Deleriad » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:11 pm

Vagni wrote:Looks pretty good and follows the RAW well.

The only suggestion I can make is a minor addition: I would perhaps allow someone running to 'set shield' and give them protection to their shield arm and two adjacent locations, this simulates occasions when a player may want to run to a location under missile fire and cover their head, chest and shield arm, say. Any hits to those locations count as an automatic parry and the missile has to overcome the shield as normal (if it's powerful enough that is). Maybe the shield size should even count as one less for such a tactic.
Running with a shield, definitely. I would just add its APs to any worn armour. Of course the missile user may try to use choose location to aim for somewhere not covered by the shield. In that case I would use the normal -20% for a running target and ask the PC (or have the NPC state) if they want to be able to choose an unshielded location if they hit. If so they would get an extra -20% for a small target.
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Postby Dan True » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:15 pm

Hm, I prefer the RAW.. I actually like that "move" is in itself considered an action, but can be done during other actions.

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Postby Deleriad » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:50 pm

Dan True wrote:Hm, I prefer the RAW.. I actually like that "move" is in itself considered an action, but can be done during other actions.

- Dan
Thing is that's not in RAW. That is an interpretation. At one point Pete said that you can combine moving and acting but didn't specify how. (My hose rule is that you can move half of your rate and act). Going by the interpretation you can move using a bonus CA from dual wield. Someone with 4CAs, a shield and plate armour can actually MOVE faster than they can RUN. Also the book doesn't actually explain how moving more than your MOV as a single action works. In general it works through handwaving which is all well and good until you get new players trying to make sense of it. For example, going RAW if someone disengages from combat using Change Distance then their opponent can just move up an attack again.

Going by the number of questions that get asked, I reckon this is one of those cases where the rules need a lot of both clarification and tightening up.
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Postby DamonJynx » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:49 am

Deleriad wrote:Someone with 4CAs, a shield and plate armour can actually MOVE faster than they can RUN..


That's not the way I interpret RAW. If you aren't running or charging as far I know you can only move up to your base speed/round. If you have 4 CA's regardless of they come about, you can move as little or as much as you want per CA so long as you don't exceed your base movement for the round (8 generally speaking).If you want to whack something in the head as you go it is permitted.
Deleriad wrote:Also the book doesn't actually explain how moving more than your MOV as a single action works. In general it works through handwaving which is all well and good until you get new players trying to make sense of it.
Clearer explanation is most definitely required. I thought you used your first CA to change range and then used the rest of your CA that round to run.
Deleriad wrote:Going by the number of questions that get asked, I reckon this is one of those cases where the rules need a lot of both clarification and tightening up.
I'd have to agree, a lot of the newer players/GM's to the system, myself included, are ex-DnD and the movement RAW are a bit of head spin.
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Postby Sir Gawain » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:18 am

With my players we started using these rules (which will need a bit of tweaking and adjusting, but seem to work, anyway).

- You can move 1-2m as part of a CA, and still do something else (attack, reload, cast, and so on).
- You can choose to spend the entire CA moving, and so you move your whole MR (usually 8m), but you don't do anything else (exception: charging). You can do this every CA, if you want.
- You can decide to run, but that requires the whole Combat Round. You move your MRx5 (minus armour penalties); this score will be equally divided among your CA. If you run, you can't do anything else.

I know these rules create some paradoxes, but as I said they seem to work. The base assumption is that in a fight you usually move quicker than in a normal situation (a kind of jog/light run), and this lets you move your (usual) 8m more than once in a single Combat Round.
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Postby Dan True » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:23 am

Deleriad wrote:
Thing is that's not in RAW. That is an interpretation. At one point Pete said that you can combine moving and acting but didn't specify how.
I'm fairly sure he stated you could move during any of your actions, as long as you always move before the action. I know this is not an official ruling. but when I went back and read the chapter with Pete's clarification in mind I could see what he meant in the RAW.
But of course, feel free to interpret it just as you like of course. I just don't like the idea of using actions on moving (except running of course, which clearly prevents you doing much with you hands). I quite like that movement and actions-done-with-pointy-metal-sticks-or-hands (i.e. CA) have been separated (at least in the way I understood Pete's clarification).
Deleriad wrote: Going by the number of questions that get asked, I reckon this is one of those cases where the rules need a lot of both clarification and tightening up.
I agree there, and I'm not saying you shouldn't try to make up clarified rules.. Merely that they seem to go in another direction than what I like, but to heck with that.
I really hope Wayfarer will clarify these rules - especially charging.

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Postby Deleriad » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:28 am

I must admit that part of my motivation is because of Wayfarer so I've been back looking at the book. What RAW says is

A character can move their MOV in round.
A character can sprint/charge up to 5*MOV (minus AP)

Under Combat as an action it says that a character can move their full MOV which then leads to the obvious questions:
If a character moves their full MOV on CA 1, can they move again?
Can a character move and act in the same action? (Book is silent on this front.)
If a character wishes to move more than their MOV what do they do? (There is actually no 'run' Combat Action).
If a character wishes to charge a distance more than their normal MOV, how many CAs does it cost?
If you disengage what is to stop the opponent from simply moving their MOV next action and attacking you again?

In the example of combat, Thrace wishes to charge a trollkin having already acted this round. The GM says that it is far enough to require 2 CAs so he hits on his first action next round. This means that the character must be more than his MOV away. This implies that you are allowed to move more than your MOV and act in the same round.

For a player coming to the system new it is very hard to derive any kind of intention out of the rules. Most of it is a matter of making the explanation clearer but some of it I think is that movement is currently handled on a "you can move whatever seems reasonable at the time" basis. That's fine until you have people who like to use battlemats. I think the rules really need to be able to work for them too.
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Postby Deleriad » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:38 am

Dan True wrote:
Deleriad wrote:
Thing is that's not in RAW. That is an interpretation. At one point Pete said that you can combine moving and acting but didn't specify how.
I'm fairly sure he stated you could move during any of your actions, as long as you always move before the action.
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Replies crossed in the timeline...

I remember the conversation. Then again he also said it was possible to, for example, duck out of cover, shoot then return to cover if I remember correctly.1 The intent of the rules is definitely to be loose and somewhat free-form. If it seems reasonable then go with it. That is fine but it does run into paradoxes and throws up all sorts of anomalies. The most obvious one being the MOVE action. Similarly if you have 3 or 4 CAs it is easy to move further than your MOVE.

Personally I'm happy to run the game that way but I don't use grids and I've been playing RQ for nearly 30 years. However, if the game is meant to be played that way then the rules should reflect that.
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Postby Dan True » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:47 am

Well, I can try to answer them from my understanding of what Pete meant.
Deleriad wrote: If a character moves their full MOV on CA 1, can they move again?
No, not unless they choose to sprint, in which case they must use all their CAs. The reason for this is that it takes time to build up speed - so you can't start running your max speed and the stop dead and act.

The rules simply state "you can move up to your MOV per round". The only reason the "Move" action is in there, is so you can spend a CA doing nothing but move... Else you would have to say "I move 3 meters closer and choose the Do Nothing action - which might be weird formulation...
Deleriad wrote: Can a character move and act in the same action? (Book is silent on this front.)
I interpret the silence (together with Pete's clarification) as to yes, you can. Although Pete said that a move always needs to be done prior, or "to get to do" the action. So if A wants to whack a stick at B and is 3 meters away, he can move the 3 meters and whack B on the same CA. He can't however whack B and then move 3 meters away (as B would realistically get a chance to react on such an action).
Deleriad wrote: If a character wishes to move more than their MOV what do they do? (There is actually no 'run' Combat Action).
They use the "sprint" rules from the game system chapter. But yes, these should be mentioned in the combat chapter also.
Deleriad wrote: If a character wishes to charge a distance more than their normal MOV, how many CAs does it cost?
Charge is a sprint action, so it takes the whole round and all CA (the last CA being the actual attack). Let common sense decide, but I wouldn't allow a charge for anything less than normal MOV. If you get an added DMG modifier, it means you have at least some momentum.
Deleriad wrote: If you disengage what is to stop the opponent from simply moving their MOV next action and attacking you again?
Nothing - just like in real life. You have to disengage him at the proper time, either while he hasn't got any more CA, while he's tripped or in combat against another.
I tend to allow a certain form of disengage where you disregard the opponents ability to keep you in range, so you force the opponent to make the attack at you. This basically means he just turns his back to the enemy, and runs... which might work, but can also end catastrophically.
If you don't carelessly run away, but wishes to disengage without giving your opponent an opening, I think it's fine you need to do it at the right time - which might not come - as it is not that easy to escape from someone trying to whack you.
Deleriad wrote: In the example of combat, Thrace wishes to charge a trollkin having already acted this round. The GM says that it is far enough to require 2 CAs so he hits on his first action next round. This means that the character must be more than his MOV away. This implies that you are allowed to move more than your MOV and act in the same round.
Well, not in the same round since he rules that he will only hit in the next round. The GM estimates there is between 9-16 meters (i.e. 2 "move CAs") to the trollkin. This means that Thrane will move 8 meters this round and the remainder (and the whacking part) in the next round. However, this goes against the "sprint is a charge", which I cannot remember it RAW or Pete.
Deleriad wrote: For a player coming to the system new it is very hard to derive any kind of intention out of the rules. Most of it is a matter of making the explanation clearer but some of it I think is that movement is currently handled on a "you can move whatever seems reasonable at the time" basis. That's fine until you have people who like to use battlemats. I think the rules really need to be able to work for them too.
I use nothing but a battlemap, and haven't had that many problems (after Pete's clarification that is) - all my players are ex-DnD with only one with significant experience from WFRP.
But I do agree whole heartedly that they need to be clearer... and consistent with the examples. You cannot expect people to have to read a 10-page thread and find Pete's clarification in it, to make a movement/combat system work perfectly.

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Postby Dan True » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:55 am

Deleriad wrote:Then again he also said it was possible to, for example, duck out of cover, shoot then return to cover if I remember correctly.
Hm, that would be weird since it kinda goes against whatever I understood Pete to be trying to explain... He said that you could only move before an action (he used the grab a thingy from a person-example I believe...). So this move-shoot-move would clearly be against that... far for me to say that he didn't say it though.

Just remember, I'm not trying to stifle this conversation as I think it's very important we get to the bottom of movement, and that Mongoose updates the chapter SIGNIFICANTLY when publishing Wayfarer.
I just don't agree with the direction, and am trying to give my 5 cent... but of course, all our Game-Formerly-Known-As-RuneQuest will vary.

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Postby RosenMcStern » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:41 am

I think the REALLY IMPORTANT question is:

- player A is 3 meters away from Big Orc Grunt, outside its reach; Nasty Orc Sorcerer is right behind Big Orc Grunt, preparing Awesomely Destructive Spell;

- if Player A has a higher Strike Rank, can he move past Big Orc Grunt and simply stab at the (defenseless, as he is spellcasting) Orc Sorcerer, possibly slaughtering him, without Big Orc Grunt being able to do anything about it, in the same combat action. Note that this problem is avoided, in other game systems, by Engagement and Attack of Opportunity rules, but these two concepts are not present in TGFKARQII.
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Postby Dan True » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:46 am

RosenMcStern wrote:I think the REALLY IMPORTANT question is:

- player A is 3 meters away from Big Orc Grunt, outside its reach; Nasty Orc Sorcerer is right behind Big Orc Grunt, preparing Awesomely Destructive Spell;

- if Player A has a higher Strike Rank, can he move past Big Orc Grunt and simply stab at the (defenseless, as he is spellcasting) Orc Sorcerer, possibly slaughtering him, without Big Orc Grunt being able to do anything about it, in the same combat action. Note that this problem is avoided, in other game systems, by Engagement and Attack of Opportunity rules, but these two concepts are not present in TGFKARQII.
Agreed. Easy enough to handle as it comes up, but should be covered in the rules.
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Postby Deleriad » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:53 am

Definitely don't think you're "stifling" the debate.

As you say the combat example implies that the opponent is more than 8m away and contradicts the "charge is a sprint" rule. Book puts charging and sprinting in the same place (Game system chapter under sprinting) so it implies that a charge is a sprint.

My baseline understanding of the rules is that you have an allowance of 8m per combat round. (for humans). You can freely spend those 8m in conjunction with actions or by themselves but, if you want to move more than 8m you have to "sprint." However if you sprint you cannot do anything else that round. This means that if on action 1 you move 8m then you cannot take any more movement that round (except of course by GM fiat).

The rules I'm suggesting try to formalise that without having to track a movement allowance. Given that without a battlemat you really don't want to have to track every metre of movement then why have an allowance system? The effect though is to slightly restrict the combination of movement and action, which is what you would rather not see happen.

E.g. current rule: 8m allowance which can be spent however you want. Once it is used up you cannot move for the rest of the round.
My suggestion: Can use the move action to move up to 8m once per round. If you do so you can't take any more actions for the rest of the round (but can still defend self). Can also combine about 2m of movement with each non-movement action.

Current rule. Can sprint MOV*5 per round. Unclear about impact on CAs.
My suggestion: As above except to clarify that it uses all CAs for the turn so must be done on first active SR.
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Postby Deleriad » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:59 am

RosenMcStern wrote:I think the REALLY IMPORTANT question is:

- player A is 3 meters away from Big Orc Grunt, outside its reach; Nasty Orc Sorcerer is right behind Big Orc Grunt, preparing Awesomely Destructive Spell;

- if Player A has a higher Strike Rank, can he move past Big Orc Grunt and simply stab at the (defenseless, as he is spellcasting) Orc Sorcerer, possibly slaughtering him, without Big Orc Grunt being able to do anything about it, in the same combat action. Note that this problem is avoided, in other game systems, by Engagement and Attack of Opportunity rules, but these two concepts are not present in TGFKARQII.
Also agreed. This should be in the rules. I do uses a house rule which says:

If one character attempts to move *past* an armed and ready opponent who is not otherwise engaged, the opponent can spend a CA to attack the moving character while he moves even if this would happen before the opponent's SR. The moving character can defend himself as usual. If the opponent gains a CM (or does knockback) the opponent can use a CM to block the moving character, preventing him from completing his move.
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Postby RosenMcStern » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:02 am

Deleriad wrote:Can also combine about 2m of movement with each non-movement action.
This is still likely to cause some weird results (you can move farther if you have a shield), but it is an acceptable compromise. You should also add that the action takes place after your movement, not before it.
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Re: Moving again (and again (and again...))

Postby duncan_disorderly » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:14 am

Deleriad wrote: -------
If a character is not currently engaged in combat he can either MOVE or RUN.

MOVE: the character can use a Combat Action to move up to their normal Movement Rating (8m for a human). Once a character has moved this way in a Combat Round they can take no further actions this round but can still take defensive reactions (parry, evade or counter-casting a spell). A MOVE is an ongoing action which means that the character is considered to be moving until what would be their next turn (whether this round or next).
FAIL
This seems to suggest that if I have 4 CA and choose to move 3m on the first action I can then do nothing but defend for the next 3 (I can't even move the remaining 5m of my allowance)
It means that I could attack 3 times then advance on my 4th action if I defeat my opponent, but if I defeat him in 2 attacks I can't advance and attack again on my 4th action. Nor can I advance on my first action then attack three times.

It has also lost the ability to do things while moving...
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Postby duncan_disorderly » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:24 am

Deleriad wrote: Going by the interpretation you can move using a bonus CA from dual wield.
...and this is a problem because?
Deleriad wrote:
Someone with 4CAs, a shield and plate armour can actually MOVE faster than they can RUN.
MOVE = 8m
RUN = 5*MOVE - Arnour penalty = 40m - Armour penalty
You can only MOVE faster than you can RUN if your Armour penalty is > 32m

The number of Combat Actions is irrelevant to the distance you can cover in a round (which is why you can't tie a move action to set distance, otherwise characters with low CA's suddenly slow down when you get to combat)
Deleriad wrote:
Also the book doesn't actually explain how moving more than your MOV as a single action works.
You SPRINT/CHARGE and use all your actions for the round
Deleriad wrote:
For example, going RAW if someone disengages from combat using Change Distance then their opponent can just move up an attack again.
Again, this is a problem because?
What are the supposed to do? stand around scratching their heads wondering why they suddenly can't reach them any more?
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Postby Deleriad » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:41 am

Going by the book.

The MOVE action is not restricted to once per round.

The book does not say whether you can can move and act.

If you blow all your movement on your first action then an opponent can stand two metres in front of you and plug you full of arrows while you stand there and try to dodge/parry.

The book is not clear on the question: if you have acted once this round can you sprint/charge?

The book does not state how many CAs a sprint/charge uses.

If your movement rate is 8m and you want to, for example, move 12m, how many CAs does that use?

On the big capital "FAIL" front, it would be nice if the conversation could remain polite.

The intent behind my ideas is that both MOVE and RUN are considered to be things you are doing for the whole round.

If you wish to MOVE then you spend the round moving fairly cautiously and can continue to use any remaining CAs to defend yourself. You can start MOVEing at any point during the round.

If you wish to RUN then you spend the round going flat out and have no actions left to defend yourself. To cut down on paradoxes you have to start running as your first action (though you may have previously defended yourself this round).

Note that these are supposed to be used in the middle of combat. Moving 8m across a battlefield while carnage occurs is not exactly a stroll in the country. If a character wishes to move 3m for some reason then presumably there's a reason. Perhaps they are heading to a tree or some other form of cover. In which case they look around, get safely to the tree, look around again and stay on the alert for missiles, stray spells, hobgoblins hiding in the branches and so on.

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