Wayfarer

Discover the Legend RPG, Mongoose's fantasy game.
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Postby Morgan d'Barganfore » Sun May 29, 2011 8:04 am

I agree totally, whip out the rune references if need be, embody outstanding errata, otherwise leave the mechanics alone. WHich, actually, is what I think was said (a few days ago by Matt) that Mongoose intended to do. Thats and publish some more Deus Vult this year (hurray!)
Ok, on your other point, the Fred defender get benefit of his skill in that his parry is more likely to be successful, i.e he takes no damage. But for being more nimble, (DEX) has a minor contribution to skill level and a major one to SR. Armour type (lightness) has a lower penalty to SR, thereby a lightly armoured Fred the defender goes first more often than not, morphs into Fred the attacker and thereby has less incoming blows. Seems to work too.
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languagegeek
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Postby languagegeek » Sun May 29, 2011 4:33 pm

taxboy wrote:shouldn't the defenders get some allowance for being nimble, low armour etc rather than just a parry?
Evade? The nimble adventurer can slip between arrows while the big tough guy in armour is going to get pelted.
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Postby Morgan d'Barganfore » Sun May 29, 2011 5:13 pm

hmmm - is that a tongue I see in a cheek, perhaps?
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Dan True
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Postby Dan True » Sun May 29, 2011 5:52 pm

Well, fact is that the system is build pretty realistically and in real life there isn't much chance for an unarmoured guy to simple dodge and nimble his way through a stand-up fight (say, a duel) - at least not for long. If the armoured guy simply monitors his own pace (doesn't get angry and start beserking), he won't tire nearly as quickly as a guy jumbing around like a french parcour enthusiast.
THAT is, if they are fighting in enclosed quarters where the unarmoured guy simply can't run off ... A siege, duel or narrow passage for example.

However, the guy in armour will be next to useless in a skirmish battle taking place in undergrowth or in a otherwise restricted area. This is reflected by the fact that he recieves a penalty to Athletics, and combat in heavy undergrowth should call for A LOT of checks of this kind.

Sooh, the combat system reflects the realistic view => that different equipment setups are good for various scenarious, rather than the classical way of thinking, where there are two types of fighters:
A) big brutes in armour
B) nimble guys who dodge.

But somehow these two clearly different approaches, often seem to end up doing the same thing (high AC or something similar). They both end up being harder to kill in the same situations, instead of specialising in different situations as in Real Life.

But I like the way RQ handles it. The nimble fighter will fare better in restricted environments, or in a bar fight - where the armoured fighter will survive far longer in a shield wall or duel.

Of course, if you give a rats ass about realism, and wan't to enable your players to play heroic duelists that play cat-and-mouse with armoured opponents, then the system might need some fine-tuning.

Perhaps an "optional rule" box in the combat section, detailing a few ideas for doing this?

- Dan
Check out my RuneQuest 6 blog!. It now has an adventure idea generator :)

Author of the Eberron for Legend/MRQ2 conversion:
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Postby Morgan d'Barganfore » Sun May 29, 2011 10:12 pm

Dan,
Eloquent. Works for me.
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Postby Verderer » Mon May 30, 2011 1:27 pm

About the Magic system, I haven't actually used it, only read the rules and the spell descriptions, so my view may be off a bit (or a lot). However, like I said, there may be some minor issues when using them in a more generic (aka. D&D style environment).

Firstly, in Glorantha there is the assumption that everybody can use certain type of spells depending on which cult you belong to, I guess. I know the rulebook actually mentions that this may not be desirable in certain other settings, but nevertheless the assumption affect the magic rules, and also brings the cults more to the fore. Not necessarily a problem, but may turn off some people.

This is related to the concept of common magic, and the other more specialised types. How do you use common magic in environments where magic casting ability is reserved only for mages/priests etc? Do you simply make up cults which use certain types, and then limit 'non-casters' status in these cults as laymen, etc? Are common spells just 'petty magic' or 'cantrips' compared with the more specialised Sorcery and Divine magic? Common magic certainly doesn't seem very common or low level, there are some quite powerful spells there, it seems? And what to do about Sprit Magic, does it actually have a place in certain settings? I can see where exorcism and spirit combat might have it's place (like priests casting out devils in Deus Vult or something)?

Of course, lot of this depends on your setting but I can see where the RQII RAW may cause some dilemmas to solve, especially if you're not a RQ veteran. It certainly has cause me to pause and try to figure this out. It's not so much the rules themselves, but the organisation of the system of cults/spells so they fit in your setting. I actually like the rules very much, how divine magic works, and how flexible and powerful sorcery seems etc.

Which reminds me of one other possible concern, the potential for development a caster has. Unlike games like D&D, where the potential is almost limitless, in RQII the potential is limited by POW and magic points which, if I am not mistaken, are not easy to rise, or at least not insanely so, than in D&D. The improvement seems more subtle and smaller in scale. You get better skills for the most part. For a player weaned on D&D etc. it might seem rather insignificant, even? Of course, it's the same for combat as well. No levels, no insane bonuses, extra attacks (unless you pay insane development points) etc. Everything is more compact and subtle. I am not saying this is bad thing, quite the opposite. But it might be a turnoff for some people?

One another thing about magic that might be problematic in a more generic setting is enchanted items (ie. Magic items) as described in Arms & Equipment. I seem to remember that you need to dedicate either POW or magic points to crete them? So this would seem a big sacrifice for the magic user, and how do you explain this mechanism in a setting, when +1 swords and rings of protection are common as mud? Have there have been hordes of magic item creating mages in times past, and they didn't mind handing these out like free candy, or what? Again, the mechanism is rather nice and subtle, and reminds me of the One Ring type of deal in LOTR, where Sauron poured a lot of his power into the ring (magic points), and now wants it back. Magic items seem therefore much more personal and important for their creators. Very nice, but how does it fit to a setting where magic items seem to be overly common?

It would be interesting to hear what you more experienced RQ GMs think of these issues? Or are they in fact issues at all? I am in the process of trying to convert the system into a setting using some D&D 3.x material, so this would be especially helpful for me.

Oh, and another thing: Mongoose, when you make Wayfarer, please make a GM screen that's actually useful!?
Last edited by Verderer on Mon May 30, 2011 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dan True » Mon May 30, 2011 1:31 pm

Verderer wrote:About the Magic system, I haven't actually used it, only read the rules and the spell descriptions, so my view may be off a bit (or a lot). However, like I said, there may be some minor issues when using them in a more generic (aka. D&D style environment).

Firstly, in Glorantha there is the assumption that everybody can use certain type of spells depending on which cult you belong to, I guess. I know the rulebook actually mentions that this may not be desirable in certain other settings, but nevertheless the assumption affect the magic rules, and also brings the cults more to the fore. Not necessarily a problem, but may turn off some people.

This is related to the concept of common magic, and the other more specialised types. How do you use common magic in environments where magic casting ability is reserved only for mages/priests etc? Do you simply make up cults which use certain types, and then limit 'non-casters' status in these cults as laymen, etc? Are common spells just 'petty magic' or 'cantrips' compared with the more specialised Sorcery and Divine magic? Common magic certainly doesn't seem very common or low level, there are some quite powerful spells there, it seems? And what to do about Sprit Magic, does it actually have a place in certain settings? I can see where exorcism and spirit combat might have it's place (like priests casting out devils in Deus Vult or something)?

Of course, lot of this depends on your setting but I can see where the RQII RAW may cause some dilemmas to solve, especially if you're not a RQ veteran. It certainly has cause me to pause and try to figure this out. It's not so much the rules themselves, but the organisation of the system of cults/spells so they fit in your setting. I actually like the rules very much, how devine magic works, and how flexible and powerful sorcery seems etc.

Which reminds me of one other possible concern, the potential for development a caster has. Unlike games like D&D, where the potential is almost limitless, in RQII the potential is limited to POW and magic points which, if I am not mistaken, are not easy to rise, or at least not insanely so, than in D&D. The improvement seems more subtle and smaller in scale. You get better skills for the most part. For a player weaned on D&D etc. it might seem rather insignificant, even? Of course, it's the same for combat as well. No levels, no insane bonuses, extra attacks (unless you pay insane development points) etc. Everything is more compact and subtle. I am not saying this is bad thing, quite the opposite. But it might be a turnoff for some people?

One another thing about magic that might be problematic in a more generic setting is enchanted items (ie. Magic items) as described in Arms & Equipment. I seem to remember that you need to dedicate either POW or magic points to crete them? So this would seem a big sacrifice for the magic user, and how do you explain this mechanism in a setting, when +1 swords and rings of protection are common as mud? Have there have been hordes of magic item creating mages in times past, and they didn't mind handing these out like free candy, or what? Again, the mechanism is rather nice and subtle, and reminds me of the One Ring type of deal in LOTR, where Sauron poured a lot of his power into the ring (magic points), and now wants it back. Magic items seem therefore much more personal and important for their creators. Very nice, but how does it fit to a setting where magic items seem to be overly common?

It would be interesting to hear what you more experienced RQ GMs think of these issues? Or are they in fact issues at all? I am in the process of trying to convert the system into a setting using some D&D 3.x material, so this would be especially helpful for me.

Oh, and another thing: Mongoose, when you make Wayfarer, please make a GM screen that's actually useful!?
You should take a look at my Eberron conversion, it adresses some of these issues.

Spells: Most casters in my game has Common Magic. Common magic represents what a d&d player would know as the low-level spells, and sorcery/divine magic the higher level spells.

Items: In Eberron we have artificers :) They have special rules to create magic items without spending their POW. You could introduce some similar rules for another d&d style setting.

- Dan
Check out my RuneQuest 6 blog!. It now has an adventure idea generator :)

Author of the Eberron for Legend/MRQ2 conversion:
http://runequill.com/files/Eberron_Legend.pdf
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Postby Verderer » Mon May 30, 2011 1:38 pm

Oh I will, Dan. It will be very useful when I figure out my own setting specific solution!
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Postby Deleriad » Mon May 30, 2011 2:20 pm

The answer to most of these questions are "it depends." RQ provides you with 4 magic systems that you can mix and match or omit to your heart's content. For example, Elric uses none of them. Vikings uses spirit magic. Deus Vult uses all of them as does Wraith Recon. In all of those settings, magic is used by specialists.

As for the development of spell casters. A RQ spell caster straight from pre-gen is many orders more competent than a D20 equivalent. The development is in a relatively narrow range just as with non-spell casters. Generally spell casters get a greater range of spells over time rather than becoming more powerful with their spells. That said, there can be a big difference between 70% and 110%.

When it comes to the organisation of cults and so on, well that basically fulfills the same roll as schools and divine spheres. At the most basic they tell you what spells are available. One of the things that would be a useful addition to TGFKARQ would be a wider range of associations so you could quickly delineate lists of spells. This was done in RQ3 divine magic and was a useful if rather basic tool.

Certainly, when MGP come to produce the game it would help to rewrite parts of it to speak to people who haven't previously played a BRP game in order to give them some tools to make it their own.
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Postby Big Orc » Mon May 30, 2011 8:24 pm

What I want to know is: If RQ2 is changing to Wayfarer, what about the submissions for Elric, Deus Vult, ect. that people are working on, should they carry on working on them and/or submit them? Any advice from admin. would be appreciated.
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Postby Dan True » Mon May 30, 2011 8:26 pm

Big Orc wrote:What I want to know is: If RQ2 is changing to Wayfarer, what about the submissions for Elric, Deus Vult, ect. that people are working on, should they carry on working on them and/or submit them? Any advice from admin. would be appreciated.
Well, from what Mongoose has said, you can just smack another name on the frontpage and call it a day.

If not, we'll know when the new book arrives.

- Dan
Check out my RuneQuest 6 blog!. It now has an adventure idea generator :)

Author of the Eberron for Legend/MRQ2 conversion:
http://runequill.com/files/Eberron_Legend.pdf
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Postby DamonJynx » Mon May 30, 2011 9:28 pm

Verderer, as Deleriad says, it depends.

I'm creating a plane of the Multiverse for my Elric PC's that will be more of a generic fantasy world, rather than be based on canon from MM. In this world my initial thoughts regarding magic are;

  • Common Magic - used by Wizards (Lesser Path?)
    Divine Magic - used by Priests
    Spirit Magic - used by Tribal Shaman
    Sorcery - used by Sorcerers (Greater Path?)
    Runic and Summoning Magic from Elric - used by Warlocks and Druid types, Tribal Shaman would have access to 'nature runes' eg, elements, flora and fauna.
So the magic RAW are very flexible you can pretty much do with them as you will. You could aslo look at Wraith Recon, I believe that has some different takes on Magic and enchanted items. I haven't read it myself though.

Big Orc - In the article I'm writing for submission to S&P (I haven't pitched it yet, I prefer to write a first draft before sending a pitch) I'm using Wayfarer in lieu of Runequest, that's the only difference.
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Re: Wayfarer

Postby Pendraig » Tue May 31, 2011 5:00 am

alex_greene wrote:Okay. So, RQ engine, check. Systems, check. Chargen, check.

Setting.

H'mm, setting ...

The phrase "... from the ground up" suddenly acquires a whole new meaning.

It's not RuneQuest, so you don't have to worry about acquiring and learning Runes. It's not RuneQuest, so adventures don't have to be quests.

You can design your own, complete, setting, systems, concepts entirely new to the game - or indeed any fantasy game. You can set scales for magic-rich, magic-average, magic-starved, heroic, High, Low, Comedic and even Mature Fantasy.

You can set the eras to anything you like, too. Primordial (analogues of the early Neolithic), Early Civilised (analogues of the Greco - Roman, early Persian, early Dynastic Egyptian, Babylonian, early Dynastic Chinese eras), Middle Civilised (Renaissance), Modern ... Future, Far Future ... Alternate Timeline ... Anthropomorphic Fantasy (talking animals ...)

The Wayfarer engine has massive, massive potential. Discuss.
Yes it does there is no doubt, but the question is, OGL or not to apply the massive potential?
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Postby Vile » Tue May 31, 2011 5:11 am

I recall Matt saying something about going beyond OGL, or something to that effect? I think some form of openness would be a very good idea to allow exploration of all corners of the system's potential, which might be difficult for the main publisher alone (Mongoose).
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Postby Pendraig » Tue May 31, 2011 5:33 am

Vile wrote:I recall Matt saying something about going beyond OGL, or something to that effect? I think some form of openness would be a very good idea to allow exploration of all corners of the system's potential, which might be difficult for the main publisher alone (Mongoose).
I haven't been diligently following the boards.... if Matt mentioned it and follows through then good on him.
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Postby danskmacabre » Tue May 31, 2011 10:09 am

DamonJynx wrote:Verderer, as Deleriad says, it depends.
I'm creating a plane of the Multiverse for my Elric PC's that will be more of a generic fantasy world, rather than be based on canon from MM. In this world my initial thoughts regarding magic are;
  • Common Magic - used by Wizards (Lesser Path?)
    Divine Magic - used by Priests
    Spirit Magic - used by Tribal Shaman
    Sorcery - used by Sorcerers (Greater Path?)
    Runic and Summoning Magic from Elric - used by Warlocks and Druid types, Tribal Shaman would have access to 'nature runes' eg, elements, flora and fauna.
I'm tempted to do something like this as well.
I ran Elric on the weekend for several people I invited down from Wales where I used to live.
They had a great time, but the players in my existing group where I live now who I normally run Pathfinder for, whilst enjoying themselves, found the combat really brutal and with the added very little healing, resurrection, they went through a few characters ovver the weekend! :D
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Postby Lokai » Tue May 31, 2011 2:09 pm

And i finally get around to considering jumping into a new game system and its going buh bye? Should i just wait for them to start putting out wayfarer products then just to see what happens?

I myself have not been a dm but i was considering doing so but i'm not sure there are are any/many adventure books for runequest 2 to help me get things started? What all would i need to pick up if i decided not to wait for wayfarer? As far as magical healing/ressurrection is it simply not part of the game? I'd really like to play with a grittier combat system but still allow for the possibility of being able to heal serious wounds.....people do get rather attached to their characters and i'd hate to be killing peoples avatars off left and right :)
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Postby Dan True » Tue May 31, 2011 2:33 pm

Lokai wrote:And i finally get around to considering jumping into a new game system and its going buh bye? Should i just wait for them to start putting out wayfarer products then just to see what happens?

I myself have not been a dm but i was considering doing so but i'm not sure there are are any/many adventure books for runequest 2 to help me get things started? What all would i need to pick up if i decided not to wait for wayfarer? As far as magical healing/ressurrection is it simply not part of the game? I'd really like to play with a grittier combat system but still allow for the possibility of being able to heal serious wounds.....people do get rather attached to their characters and i'd hate to be killing peoples avatars off left and right :)
There is magical healing and ressurection in the system.. what danskmacabre is talking about is Elric - one of the settings for RuneQuest, where healing is very scarce.

If you do decide to start with RQ2 now, I would advise you to grab the core rulebook and then browse Signs and Portens (which is an online magasine from mongoose publishing. There's a sticky thread on this forum with links, and also from the mongoose webpage) for some adventures you can start out with.

Remember you are always free to ask on this forum, also about more general DM-techniques. There are a lot of experienced DMs here who like giving out advice :)

Welcome to the system!

- Dan
Check out my RuneQuest 6 blog!. It now has an adventure idea generator :)

Author of the Eberron for Legend/MRQ2 conversion:
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Postby danskmacabre » Tue May 31, 2011 2:50 pm

Mongoose Runequest 2 has healing etc, we're talking about an add on game called Elric, which hangs off the Mongoose Runequest 2 system.
Elric is a far grittier and unfogviving RPG, all the healing spells are removed.

If you run Mongoose Runequest 2 by itself, it fine and has all the healing you need/want.
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Postby Dan True » Tue May 31, 2011 2:52 pm

danskmacabre wrote: If you run Mongoose Runequest 2 by itself, it fine and has all the healing you need/want.
And too much for my taste acutally...

- Dan
Check out my RuneQuest 6 blog!. It now has an adventure idea generator :)

Author of the Eberron for Legend/MRQ2 conversion:
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