Wayfarer

Discover the Legend RPG, Mongoose's fantasy game.
Verderer
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Postby Verderer » Sat May 28, 2011 2:02 pm

Stainless wrote: Sorry, I woke up in a v. bad mood today due to a night of mayhem with my children. No sleep and forums don't mix. :x Actually, the more you "sell" it to me, the more I'm not interested. Sorry. To my personal tastes, chucking as many genres and tropes into a game in the hope that something sticks with someone just isn't my thing. I could say a lot more but it's neither the time or place....
I think you'va said plenty already. Amazing what conclusions you can make without actually reading the book?
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Stainless
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Postby Stainless » Sat May 28, 2011 2:24 pm

I suppose I should have passed comment on theRPGsite where they can cope with such heinous and vile words.
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Grimolde
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Postby Grimolde » Sat May 28, 2011 3:13 pm

Stainless wrote:I suppose I should have passed comment on theRPGsite where they can cope with such heinous and vile words.
I don't think it's so much how you said it, just that you dismissed the game before giving it a chance. You never know, you may like it
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Postby DamonJynx » Sat May 28, 2011 3:17 pm

Verderer wrote:It is the magic system I am not so sure about. The current system offers an interesting mix, but I wonder if this is too Runequest and rune centred for generic use? I've been trying to think how to bring the RQII magic system somewhat closer to generic high-magic system, ala. D&D 3.x, and I see some minor difficulties in this area. On the other hand the magic system is very interesting and versatile, so I don't want to dumb it down too much. Any thoughts on this?
Sorry, I don't get where you're coming from. I think the core magic system is fine if you remove Runic references all you have left is spells with descriptions. where is that any different? You don't have to physically become Runetouched anymore.
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Postby Morgan d'Barganfore » Sat May 28, 2011 3:49 pm

Anyway, coming back to what, for me at least, is one of the main point of this thread, MRQII-->Wayfarer won't touch the core rules (aka base mechanics) although a couple of tweaks/errata may get assimilated along the way. It'll be stripped of Gloratha references, and then Dues Vult and similar may (Mongoose owned settings) get the attention instead.
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master of reality
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Postby master of reality » Sat May 28, 2011 5:53 pm

drdentista wrote:
Verderer wrote:It is the magic system I am not so sure about. The current system offers an interesting mix, but I wonder if this is too Runequest and rune centred for generic use? I've been trying to think how to bring the RQII magic system somewhat closer to generic high-magic system, ala. D&D 3.x, and I see some minor difficulties in this area. On the other hand the magic system is very interesting and versatile, so I don't want to dumb it down too much. Any thoughts on this?
Yep, that's my feeling too. I never really liked the RQ magic system for other settings. It's all very Glorantha to me. Right now I'm looking into the magic system of an old OOP Swedish RPG, "Drakar och Demoner" (Dragons & Demons) which is a BRP derivative, but that evolved along quite different lines than RQ/BRP. Excellent stuff and easy to integrate into the current MRQ2/WF system...
I'm not sure what the issue is. I don't see how the basic mechanics of casting a spell require any knowledge about Glorantha. The references to runes really don't affect the basic mechanics. Casting a spell is just like performing a skill. There's a percent chance of success. Each spell has a magnitude, range, etc. The basic differences between the four types of magic (common, sorcery, divine, and spirit) really come down to
1) how the character obtains the spell: teacher, grimoire, a god or diety.
2) what kinds of spells are available
3) how the chance of success is determined
4) can the spell's magnitude or range be altered

I don't see what any of this has to do with Glorantha. The magic from any fantasy setting can pretty much be described as one of the four types of magic listed in MRQ2 core book. All that really has to be done to make MRQ2's magic system truly generic is remove the last half of page 101, and, with the exception of the explanation of magic points, remove pages 102 to 105.
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languagegeek
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Postby languagegeek » Sat May 28, 2011 6:40 pm

master of reality wrote:
Verderer wrote:It is the magic system I am not so sure about. The current system offers an interesting mix, but I wonder if this is too Runequest and rune centred for generic use?
I'm not sure what the issue is. I don't see how the basic mechanics of casting a spell require any knowledge about Glorantha.
I remember first reading the RQII corebook and being confused as to what the point of Runes was anyway, it's not as if they affected anything much mechanically, I looked and looked and found nothing of substance. In the new wayfarer ruleset, why not just say that "The god of the Sun" would offer spells that had to do with Light or Fire and not bother with Light Runes or whatever. I do use Runes as a handy organizational tool keeping shared properties grouped together.

I don't see how the core magic types are tied to a Gloranthan setting. If you want D&D style spellcasting, follow the Divine magic mechanic: memorization and spell levels. If you want a simple spend-points system, common magic is for you. Sorcery has a lot of opportunities for spell modification/mixing&matching to suit a campaign of creative wizards. Spirit magic, the various magics in Vikings, etc. In the end, RQII provides access to whatever kind of magic you need for your setting.
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Postby soltakss » Sat May 28, 2011 6:52 pm

To me, restricting Sun God spells to fire and light is as bad as restricting them to runic spells.

Spells should reflect the powers and abilities of the deities themselves.

Perseus has an adamant sword, helm of darkness and a polished shield, so his priests should get spells relating to those objects. None of those are runic or relate to his position as a hero but they do relate to his story.
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Postby alex_greene » Sat May 28, 2011 6:53 pm

The magic system can be cored out and rebuilt from the ground up. It's like a legacy system, a relic of the old game, and with its core raison d'etre - questing after Runes - gone, there's no need for this system.
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Postby PhilHibbs » Sat May 28, 2011 7:11 pm

alex_greene wrote:The magic system can be cored out and rebuilt from the ground up. It's like a legacy system, a relic of the old game, and with its core raison d'etre - questing after Runes - gone, there's no need for this system.
As others have said, the magic system has nothing to do with runes or questing, so what's the problem? I don't think that Mongoise want to re-write any of their settings like Wraith Recon to cope with a completely re-worked magic system.
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Postby Tipsy » Sat May 28, 2011 9:21 pm

Personally, I love the core magic system (although including Elric's summoning rules would be cool).

As far as runes go, they are a good tool to structure your cosmology and cults when you are world building (especially on the fly), but they could easily just be called 'archetypes.'
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alex_greene
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Postby alex_greene » Sat May 28, 2011 10:21 pm

Tipsy wrote:As far as runes go, they are a good tool to structure your cosmology and cults when you are world building (especially on the fly), but they could easily just be called 'archetypes.'
Or "Gods."
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Postby Morgan d'Barganfore » Sat May 28, 2011 10:22 pm

Hi all,
If the parting of ways hadn't occurred, then we wouldn't be having the discussion about magic systems with or without runes. And, in passing, I agree with whoever just said that Runes weren't in your face - in Deus Vult it's low magic anyway (well so far).
Ok, given that the ways are parting, it could be "let's play something called RQII.V and, by the way, all the mechanics have completely changed." That would be very bad.
But hey, it hasn't happened that way so let's be a little more up beat about, hmm?
Once again, Matt said the core rules won't change. (Ok maybe erratas by osmosis or whatever but that's about it apart from Glorantha extraction.)
GMs can do whatever they want to do with the magic system or any other tweaking for that matter. But I, for one, am pleased it's (ok Wayfarer) still on the market essentially unmolested.
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Postby Exubae » Sat May 28, 2011 10:33 pm

To me, restricting Sun God spells to fire and light is as bad as restricting them to runic spells.

Spells should reflect the powers and abilities of the deities themselves.
Spot on.

Ideally a tool-kit for building pantheons and religions would be cool, with myth (the deity`s history, abilities and power) dictating the divine spells and training the god dishes out.
The magic system can be cored out and rebuilt from the ground up. It's like a legacy system, a relic of the old game, and with its core raison d'etre - questing after Runes - gone, there's no need for this system.
Alex you've obviously been reading the old edition of rules?
The magic systems in MRQII are pretty much Gloranthanless, for some reason the runes make an appearance but are pretty much disconnected from the systems themselves.
Unlike MRQ1 which had common magic tied to runes and the dumb idea of questing after Runes (Going on a killing spree to harvest runes from the slain).
As far as runes go, they are a good tool to structure your cosmology and cults when you are world building (especially on the fly), but they could easily just be called 'archetypes.'
Runes are a bit like spheres of influences from the old D&D rules, but archetype is pretty much a better term. Though the runes are bit to blunt to broad in their meaning;
I prefer a more descriptive motif for my gods :)
i.e Mercury being/containing the Archetype of Trader, Thief, and Messenger.
If you expressed him as set of runes you end up with Trade, Disorder, and communication, which don't really indicate what aspects of the runes the god presents.
Last edited by Exubae on Sat May 28, 2011 10:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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master of reality
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Postby master of reality » Sat May 28, 2011 10:35 pm

PhilHibbs wrote:
alex_greene wrote:The magic system can be cored out and rebuilt from the ground up. It's like a legacy system, a relic of the old game, and with its core raison d'etre - questing after Runes - gone, there's no need for this system.
As others have said, the magic system has nothing to do with runes or questing, so what's the problem? I don't think that Mongoise want to re-write any of their settings like Wraith Recon to cope with a completely re-worked magic system.
Yes, removing the references to runes won't change the mechanics of casting spells.
IMO the magic RAW work great.
If Mongoose needs to remove references to runes or Glorantha to create a generic system, that's fine, but the basic mechanics of spell casting should be left alone.
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languagegeek
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Postby languagegeek » Sun May 29, 2011 12:20 am

soltakss wrote:To me, restricting Sun God spells to fire and light is as bad as restricting them to runic spells.
The point was that for those who want to, you can replace "Rune" with "God" (or whatever) and it's only the flavour that changes, the magic systems themselves are pretty much completely divorced from Gloranthan Runes. Personally I don't like a grimoire or cult spell list to be too much tied to a single archetype, instead I prefer to assign spells which would likely further the cult's priorities or relate to its history.
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Postby Vile » Sun May 29, 2011 12:53 am

Ironically the relative irrelevance of runes to RQ magic has been seen as a weak point in the past. For a generic version, this becomes a plus.
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Postby drdentista » Sun May 29, 2011 7:17 am

I'm not sure what the issue is. I don't see how the basic mechanics of casting a spell require any knowledge about Glorantha. The references to runes really don't affect the basic mechanics. Casting a spell is just like performing a skill. There's a percent chance of success. Each spell has a magnitude, range, etc. The basic differences between the four types of magic (common, sorcery, divine, and spirit) really come down to
1) how the character obtains the spell: teacher, grimoire, a god or diety.
2) what kinds of spells are available
3) how the chance of success is determined
4) can the spell's magnitude or range be altered

I don't see what any of this has to do with Glorantha. The magic from any fantasy setting can pretty much be described as one of the four types of magic listed in MRQ2 core book. All that really has to be done to make MRQ2's magic system truly generic is remove the last half of page 101, and, with the exception of the explanation of magic points, remove pages 102 to 105.
What I meant was that the RQ magic system(s), to me anyway, always felt very RQ/Glorantha specific. Stuff like the concept of heavy game influence of cults, common magic available to everyone and of course runes (NOT the physical ones from MRQ1). Of course I can choose and mod what magic system I would like in another setting. So I do not think that Wayfarer should change anything rules-wise. But for me, the RQ magic system will always be, at least in "game feel"-terms very Glorantha. Just my take on RQ magic. Otherwise, I think that the MRQ2 magic system is the best ever. However, in another setting, I will mod the magic in my campaign anyway...
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Vile
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Postby Vile » Sun May 29, 2011 7:44 am

I really like the magic system in BRP which was based on Chaosium's old Magicworld system from Worlds of Wonder, IIRC. Very slick.
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Postby taxboy » Sun May 29, 2011 7:53 am

I think Runequest is the best fantasy ruleset i have ever played - love the flexibility and personalisation of magic, gritty combat and ability to build any concept you can think off.

One thing i do struggle with, is that combat is all based on the attackers skills , shouldn't the defenders get some allowance for being nimble, low armour etc rather than just a parry?
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