Evade ftw?

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Deleriad
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Postby Deleriad » Mon May 09, 2011 2:58 pm

Aneirin wrote:How about closing with a dirk? It is a small weapon that parries as if it were medium. So if someone has a large weapon you can slose in, parry for half damage, and he can't parry anything!

Or have I read the rules for dirks wrong?

(still wouldn't work against bigger two handed weapons)
Basically right. Remember though that Reach and closing is based on Length not size. Without the book in front of me I would assume that a Dirk is a short weapon. Say you were using a rapier (Long) and dirk (short) and then closed someone who was using a Long weapon. Then RAW you could attack with the rapier (but not parry) and attack or parry with the dirk. The opponent would be unable to parry.

There may be a reason why this makes sense in fight recreations but just looking at the text it looks wrong.
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Postby danskmacabre » Mon May 09, 2011 3:33 pm

I was thinking about this some weeks back and at first I didn’t really understand the ruling.
I worked out (and asked around here I think) that a Great Sword couldn’t parry a Dagger if the dagger is closed in but COULD attack, I didn’t really agree with it.
(and conversely a Dagger can’t attack against a greatsword, but can Parry (admittedly parrying zero damage, but still potentially get a CM).

At first I didn’t agree with it, but thinking back to my Viking re-enactment days (I used to fight in Viking re-enactment from about 1990 to about 2009)
I DID see the logic somewhat.
In practice, if you’re say using a Broadsword (I know it’s a medium weapon, but it’s still a lot bigger than the Dark ages version of a dagger, called a Scramseax, a sort of single edged long knife).
If the guy with the Broadsword keeps the guy with the Scramseax at bay, by and large, the Broadsword guy has a big advantage, as he can attack, but the Scramseax guy can’t. However the Scramseax guy CAN parry.
Now if the Scranseax guy DOES manage to get in close, in my experience, the guy with the Broadsword is in big trouble.
In theory the guy with the Broadsword COULD still attack though, as it’s not like he’s trying to hit the Scranseax, he’s trying to hit the body of the guy HOLDING the Scramseax.
So to me, the RAW logic works.
The same rules could sort of apply to say a Daneaxe, which would come in at the same size as a Great axe. I would argue that the guy with a Dane Axe could slide his hand down the haft to use it at shorter range, but we must remember rounds in MRQ2 are 5 seconds and generally a combatant will get 3 CAs per round. So changing your stance THAT quickly within a second, whilst is probably doable, the guy with the Scramseax (which is a faster weapon) will have probably already gutted him.
So again to me, the RAW logic works.
In reality, If I was using a large weapon and someone got past my guard with a small weapon, I wouldn’t be attacking as I know even if I got him, he probably would have gutted me first). So I would most likely be evading or trying to open the range again.


The only instance where I think it sort of falls down is say a Longsword or Scramseax vs a long spear (or other similar polearm).
The reason I say this is the Longspear was my main weapon (I was also a big fan of the Handaxe, but I digress).
If the guy with a Longspear (in the dark ages being defined as a 2 handed NON-throwing spear between 7 and 9 feet in length) is fighting say a
Guy with a broadsword or Scramseax, if he can keep him at bay, that’s fine, if the guy with the Sword has no shield, he’s in big trouble, as it’s hard to parry a spear with a sword.
BUT if the sword guy rushes the Spearman and gets past the spear, the spear guy is in a world of hurt (unless he has a backup Scram himself, but he has to whip that out first, as the long spear is 2 handed). Really his only option is to do a runner (I.E. Disengage or open the range again).
Once a close weapon guy closes in on a longspearman, he simply IS NOT going to get an attack on him, the spear is simply too long.
BUT, really whilst to me the RAW aren’t accurate (IMO) I don’t really care that much, I really don’t want to complicate the rules anymore and at the end of the day I still want to keep it fun and manageable, it IS FANTASY roleplay after all, not a completely accurate recreation of real world combat.

To me I’m pretty happy with how the rules are in this area.
Of course people should just houserule it how they like, but I prefer to keep houseruling to a minimum if possible.
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Postby Verderer » Mon May 09, 2011 3:54 pm

Yes, obviously different large weapons behave differently, but I think it's better to have one rule that sorta, kinda works for everything, rather than lots of rules for each weapon?

In the case of the long spear you could say, that the spearman would be able to attack with the shaft, staff-like, but not with the point. The same with parrying. Desperate measure to be sure, but needs must?

But like I said, it gets too complex very soon, if you think all the special weapons individually, so best draw a line someplace, hm?
danskmacabre
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Postby danskmacabre » Mon May 09, 2011 3:57 pm

Yes exactly what I said at the end of my post referring to the rules generally work very well.
I agree I'm not into writing individual rules for each weapon.
Maybe the Spearman COULD try and whack the swordsman with the shaft, but like you say more houseruling and where does it all stop?
Deleriad
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Postby Deleriad » Mon May 09, 2011 4:06 pm

danskmacabre wrote:I was thinking about this some weeks back and at first I didn’t really understand the ruling.
I worked out (and asked around here I think) that a Great Sword couldn’t parry a Dagger if the dagger is closed in but COULD attack, I didn’t really agree with it.
(and conversely a Dagger can’t attack against a greatsword, but can Parry (admittedly parrying zero damage, but still potentially get a CM).
That's useful information. I can certainly see the difficulty in effectively parrying though as some have noted it seems reasonable to say that you might be able to get the shaft of a weapon or something equivalent in the way of an attack. It is also hard to imagine how any kind of meaningful attack could be made, certainly not one that does normal weapon damage and so on.

The problem in RQ terms is that the situation looks like this. 2 people, both 3 CAs. One with a dagger, one with a greatsword. Say dagger person won initiative.

1. Dagger: change range to close. Response: try to hold off. Say Dagger wins. Now closed.
2. Greatsword. Attack with sword. Dagger person can't block any damage. Dagger person dies.

Not sure that the rules RAW seem to capture actual practice or cinematic fighting. They work passably well for roman vs hun though.

E.g. roman with shortsword and big shield 2+1 CAs. Hun with great axe 2 CAs. Say hun has higher SR due to lower armour penalty then the roman is waiting for a missed attack

Hun attack and miss. Roman parry. get CM, close.
Roman attack. Hun can't parry.
Hun attack, Roman parry with a shield. or Hun try to disengage, Roman resist.

Repeat until Hun dies.
danskmacabre
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Postby danskmacabre » Mon May 09, 2011 4:20 pm

Deleriad wrote: That's useful information. I can certainly see the difficulty in effectively parrying though as some have noted it seems reasonable to say that you might be able to get the shaft of a weapon or something equivalent in the way of an attack. It is also hard to imagine how any kind of meaningful attack could be made, certainly not one that does normal weapon damage and so on.
In practice any sort of attack with a longspear haft at close range is going to be a really wimpy attack indeed.
Whatever the case I'd be more concerned about getting away from the guy who's about to cut me open with the Scramseax than trying to attack him back.
The guy with the sword has most likely positioned himself so it'd be really difficult to do much with my spear anyway if he's any good.

The problem in RQ terms is that the situation looks like this. 2 people, both 3 CAs. One with a dagger, one with a greatsword. Say dagger person won initiative.
1. Dagger: change range to close. Response: try to hold off. Say Dagger wins. Now closed.
2. Greatsword. Attack with sword. Dagger person can't block any damage. Dagger person dies.
Well if the guy with the greatsword doesn't roll well and Dagger guy gets a success over him, he could choose a crit to raise the parry size up and effectively parry half the damage anyway.
If he does really well (2 CMs), he could increase his parry size by 1 and and do other parry CMs.
On his CA he could then close in.
Greatswords are pretty slow compared to daggers, once you've comitted to a blow, you're stuck with it, so you better hit with the greatsword.
Still, it takes a brave man to try and close in on a guy weilding a greatsword.



Anyway , like I said, the rules as they stand are for the most part fine for me. They're quick and reasonably realistic.
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Postby Aneirin » Mon May 09, 2011 10:00 pm

Well a mace has a short reach, and a medium size, so that is another one that you can use to sneak in, parrying to take in half damage, and attack the other bloke who can't parry. Would work great on people with longswords (size L, reach L) against mace (size m, reach s) and dirk (size s (m for parrying), reach s)

So yeah, I think a character with a high evade could work well against weapons like longswords. Anything bigger and he is going to suffer.
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Postby Khamulcalle » Mon May 09, 2011 10:59 pm

What does RAW stand for?
Verderer
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Postby Verderer » Mon May 09, 2011 11:08 pm

Rules As Written?
hector
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Postby hector » Tue May 10, 2011 12:37 am

Yep, as opposed to RAI (Rules As Intended), since all it takes is a misplaced comma to completely change a rule ;).
DamonJynx
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Postby DamonJynx » Tue May 10, 2011 2:35 am

AFAIK Pete Nash rewrote the majority of the combat chapter. He is also right into medieval combat re-enactment and so on. It's a pretty safe bet that most, if not all, of these concerns were thought of and ironed out in play testing or before. Remember this is a game. It is not actual re-creation of combat. The RAW are designed to provide a BALANCED set of rules to simulate FANTASY combat.

I know it seems weird that you can attack with a large weapon but not parry when someone has closed with you, it did to me as well (a couple of my PC's use Greataxes and Greatswords). At the end of the day though, if the PC/NPC is prepared to risk getting disemboweled to have a crack at the guy that closed with him, instead of keeping the distance or whatever, surely that's their choice and they'd better hope they take the other guy out before that dagger or shortsword punctures their vitals!

But, your Runequest will vary...
Glory is the reward of valour.

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danskmacabre
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Postby danskmacabre » Tue May 10, 2011 4:05 am

DamonJynx wrote:AFAIK Pete Nash rewrote the majority of the combat chapter. He is also right into medieval combat re-enactment and so on. It's a pretty safe bet that most, if not all, of these concerns were thought of and ironed out in play testing or before. Remember this is a game. It is not actual re-creation of combat. The RAW are designed to provide a BALANCED set of rules to simulate FANTASY combat.
I assume you're referring to my posts about the points I made about my experiences with re-enactment and how I felt it related to MRQ2 combat rules.
I would re-iterate on the end of ALL my posts I DID say that I appreciated it was a FANTASY game and it's a balance and even that I was quite happy with that way it worked.
I also went as far as to say that I wasn't keen on houseruling it any further as I didn't want to complicate the game any further.

I made the comments about realism vs gaming to represent the rules were ok in general, not a negative criticism of the rules.
This was in response to some comments about making various houserules about the ranges in combat.
DamonJynx
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Postby DamonJynx » Tue May 10, 2011 6:26 am

danskmacabre wrote:
DamonJynx wrote:AFAIK Pete Nash rewrote the majority of the combat chapter. He is also right into medieval combat re-enactment and so on. It's a pretty safe bet that most, if not all, of these concerns were thought of and ironed out in play testing or before. Remember this is a game. It is not actual re-creation of combat. The RAW are designed to provide a BALANCED set of rules to simulate FANTASY combat.
I assume you're referring to my posts about the points I made about my experiences with re-enactment and how I felt it related to MRQ2 combat rules.
I would re-iterate on the end of ALL my posts I DID say that I appreciated it was a FANTASY game and it's a balance and even that I was quite happy with that way it worked.
I also went as far as to say that I wasn't keen on houseruling it any further as I didn't want to complicate the game any further.

I made the comments about realism vs gaming to represent the rules were ok in general, not a negative criticism of the rules.
This was in response to some comments about making various houserules about the ranges in combat.
Sorry mate. A misunderstanding there. I am actually agreeing with you 100%. I wasn't referring to your post at all, well not directly anyway, I think you've hit the nail on the proverbial head and was backing up your POV.
A lot of posters seem to forget this is a game meant to be played on a tabletop, not a battlefield, or simply over complicate stuff. I appreciate that some folks like a...higher degree of realism in their games and that's fine, but like yourself I'm happy with RAW. I wasn't trying to get under anyone's skin believe me. I'm sorry if it came across that way.
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danskmacabre
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Postby danskmacabre » Tue May 10, 2011 7:05 am

Sure nps, sorry if I sounded a bit aggressive. :)

*group hug* ;)
DamonJynx
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Postby DamonJynx » Tue May 10, 2011 7:59 am

No drama. That's the problem with this form of communication - very easy to misinterpret stuff.
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danskmacabre
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Postby danskmacabre » Tue May 10, 2011 9:12 am

Yeah it's easy to get the wrong end of the stick when discussing stuff in detail.

BTW, I see you're from Sydney, I used to live there in the 80s. I used to goto loads of RPG conventions there.
Is there still a lot of that sort of thing going on there?
The reason I ask is My family and I are moving back to Oz this year sometime. Depending on where the work is I might be moving back to Sydney (or Melbourne, or Hobart).
DamonJynx
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Postby DamonJynx » Tue May 10, 2011 10:08 pm

There are CONS on most long weekends, I don't generally go though.

If you end up back in Sydney, keep in touch - I'm sure we can fit another player or 2 in our regular Saturday night games (and I'd like another GM to run RQ so I can play!)
Glory is the reward of valour.

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Check out, The Blood Path available NOW!
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danskmacabre
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Postby danskmacabre » Wed May 11, 2011 7:45 am

OK so sounds like COns are still very active.

Yeah that'd be awesome to play in RQ campaign.
I'm currently sorting out my kid's Oz Citizenship applications (They can get it through descent via me) , then their passports.
After that a serious job search in Oz.
I have Rellies in Sydney, Hobart, Perth and Darwin.
But Perth is too hot, Darwin too humid.
I'm guessing there's a lot of jobs in Sydney (I work with IBM ISeries boxes as a programmer/engineer), so we'll see. :)
Just will have to see how it all pans out.

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