Charging Issues

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Grimolde
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Charging Issues

Postby Grimolde » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:37 pm

I know I started the 'Movement Issues' thread, but I felt this charge issue needed its own thread. A lot of the other issues have been resolved, but there's one that keeps rearing its ugly head. We know the charge uses up all CAs of the charger. Basically, what's the charged target who has 4 CAs doing, when the charger with 3 CAs is just charging?

If the target can see the charger bearing down on him, on the surface, it looks like the charger attacks and has no CAs left, whereas the target chooses to parry, or attack back simultaneously, and has 3 CAs left.

Or, as the rules state, choosing to do nothing, costs a CA. In this case, every time the charger uses up a CA, the target gets a turn to choose a CA to do nothing (or something). This goes some way to resolving the issue, but it still begs the question, at what point in the charge does the charger's first CA, take place, and the second CA? What we did was to divide the charger's CAs by his maximum charge rate. So, for example, a charger with a charge move of 36, and 4 CAs, would expend them on 9m, 18m 27, and 36m whereupon he initiates his attack. This shows the target 'when' he gets to expend his CAs, even if they are used to do nothing.

If the target has more CAs than the charger, then the charger may find himself in trouble if he doesn't drop his charge target. If the charger has more CAs, then the charge target can always keep one CA back to attack back or defend against the charge.

I know people will say I'm over thinking things, but the fact remains, we use a combat board, and we were all scratching our head, and do so every time a charge is initiated.

The only other option we could come up with, was a charge uses up all of a charger's CAs, and all of a charge target's CAs. The target can however, still choose to move out of the way as the charger hurtles toward him.
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Postby Grimolde » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:58 pm

What about this:

You must declare a charge on the first CA of your SR.

A character can charge up to his full Move allowance every CA in a combat round. So 3 CAs allow you to charge up to 24m in a 5 second combat round, and 5 CAs allow you to charge up to 40m in a 5 second combat round. You must move at least 4m when charging, and maximum charge distance is reduced by armour as usual.

You can spend a CA to choose to stop charging at the beginning of any CA, and you can still move up to whatever move allowance you have left, provided you have CAs left to use that movement. So if you used up 28 metres charging, and you had a maximum of 36 meters, you’d still have 8 meters of movement left.

(Usain Bolt can sprint 50m in one 5 second combat round.)

Feel free to pick the bones out of the above. I'm sure there are issues I haven't considered.
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Postby Verderer » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:51 pm

So are you trying to establish a home rule, or are you trying to sort out the RAW (rules as written?)
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Postby Grimolde » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:53 pm

Verderer wrote:So are you trying to establish a home rule, or are you trying to sort out the RAW (rules as written?)
A home rule.
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Postby Verderer » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:17 pm

Fair enough, I just wish the designers popped up (hint, hint) to deliver the definite definition othe RAW charge, before we go fixing it?

Anyways, I don't think this is as much a problem as you seem to think. But then I assume that the charge occurs on the first SR available for the charger. This is because a) charge movement allows so long movement, you'd think it should start as soon as possible; and b) as charge allows only one CA (in fact IS the sole CA), then it should be the first one possible. Otherwise, he'd have used one CA for something else, and couldn't therefore do the charge?

So that's the starting point. He then moves the max charge distance or less, and delivers his one attack (or, if the defender has a weapon with a longer range/reach, then the defender attacks first, and so on.) This is the attacker's whole action for this turn. So he trades of his multiple CAs for movement plus single attack. This also means he can't do any parries, right?

Now then what about the poor defender? Well, if he's got higher SR than the charger wannebee, he can just move out of the way or behind a cover before any charge takes place, thus preventing the potential charge, or he can just prat about doing something else, right? (He's gonna be sorry...)

Ok, so assuming the defender doesn't move first or doesn't do anything to get him out fo the harms way, the charger is free to do his thing. And now all the poor defender can do is 1) stand firm and attack (perhaps missile attack or perhaps even parry, in any case one CA that doesn't move him), or 2) evade. Etc. After that both are done for this round.

Now granted this get pretty complicated in the likely case there are other characters doing other stuff nearby. But the important thing to me is that the charge resolution happens on the first (and only) SR of the charger. And it is more important to be up high in the SR order, the actual number of CA's becomes irrelevant. You can say that defender is the loser here, because he's lost all those lovely CAs for nothing. But equally you can say that he's not doing nothing, he's using the time to position himself and to estimate the distance etc. in order to get that attack or the evade.

That is, if I read the rules correctly. Feel free to correct me.

While you suggestion would seem to integrate the charge better into the turn sequence and SRs, I think it will get equally, if not more complicated in the end. Now as the combat system seems otherwise rather elegant, I find it hard to believe that the designer would have done injustice to charge which can be said to be an important factor in combat.
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Postby Verderer » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:33 pm

About your proposed solution, Grimolde, I don't see why the order of CAs would be a problem, because wouldn't they be executed in the normal SR order? Quickest goes first (unless he delays?)

And which actions would you allow for the defender in the case of multiple CAs? I assuming no movement, because then he could just move out of the way, and a grotesque chase would ensue? :shock:

Also, normally do you allow only 8 meters of movement per round (unless sprinting etc?)
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Postby Grimolde » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:44 pm

Verderer wrote:So he trades of his multiple CAs for movement plus single attack. This also means he can't do any parries, right?
The unofficial/official rule, posted here somewhere, is that you can move up to your Move 8, per combat round and act. So you could for example, Move 2m, then attack, Move 3m, then do something else, Move 1m, act, Move 3m and do something else.
Verderer wrote:Now then what about the poor defender? Well, if he's got higher SR than the charger wannebee, he can just move out of the way or behind a cover before any charge takes place, thus preventing the potential charge, or he can just prat about doing something else, right? (He's gonna be sorry...)
So a charger would be ill advised to charte an opponent with a higher SR. But basically yes, you are correct. It's also been ruled that if he did not have a higher SR, he could still move away because of the distance the charger has to cover.
Verderer wrote:Ok, so assuming the defender doesn't move first or doesn't do anything to get him out fo the harms way, the charger is free to do his thing. And now all the poor defender can do is 1) stand firm and attack (perhaps missile attack or perhaps even parry, in any case one CA that doesn't move him), or 2) evade. Etc. After that both are done for this round.
But the problem lies in, what if the target, who for example has 4 CAs, does nothing? He just loses all those CAs? Sure the rules state that 'doing nothing' takes up a CA, but it rubs my players the wrong way.
Verderer wrote:Now granted this get pretty complicated in the likely case there are other characters doing other stuff nearby. But the important thing to me is that the charge resolution happens on the first (and only) SR of the charger. And it is more important to be up high in the SR order, the actual number of CA's becomes irrelevant. You can say that defender is the loser here, because he's lost all those lovely CAs for nothing. But equally you can say that he's not doing nothing, he's using the time to position himself and to estimate the distance etc. in order to get that attack or the evade.
True, to a certain extent this is doable, but it isn't a perfect solution
Verderer wrote:While you suggestion would seem to integrate the charge better into the turn sequence and SRs, I think it will get equally, if not more complicated in the end. Now as the combat system seems otherwise rather elegant, I find it hard to believe that the designer would have done injustice to charge which can be said to be an important factor in combat.
I still think there's an elegant and concise resolution to all this. Of course some may not even see it as an issue, but some do.
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Postby Grimolde » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:47 pm

Verderer wrote:About your proposed solution, Grimolde, I don't see why the order of CAs would be a problem, because wouldn't they be executed in the normal SR order? Quickest goes first (unless he delays?)
Yes, this should not upset the ruling either way.

Verderer wrote:And which actions would you allow for the defender in the case of multiple CAs? I assuming no movement, because then he could just move out of the way, and a grotesque chase would ensue? :shock:
Well this is it. This is the question. A target with more CAs than the charger, seems to get a raw deal. But as I mentioned above, this is offset if I inform the players that it actually costs a CA to do nothing. Also, I do allow the target to simply move out of the way by expending a CA and moving up to his Move 8 allowance.
Verderer wrote:Also, normally do you allow only 8 meters of movement per round (unless sprinting etc?)
Yes. As per the rules, unless charging or sprinting, you can only move up to Move 8 (for humans) per combat round
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Postby Grimolde » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:17 pm

The easiest solution to charging, when using a battle map, that I can come up with is:

New Charging Rules
The target, regardless of how many CAs he has, can either choose to do nothing, but stand firm to receive the charge, as per the rules, or use the CAs to perform other actions. Perhaps shoot an arrow, draw a weapon (if one is not already drawn), even move up to his Move allowance. Whatever he chooses to do, the target uses up all his CAs by the time the charger has hit.

Why does the target use up CAs doing nothing? It can be said they are used up to gain the best footing and positioning possible to receive the charge, in concentrating on the charger, watching his trajectory as he closes in.

When the target chooses to act, is up to the target’s player, but the charging figure represented on the battle mat, should be moved square by square, in order to give the target’s player the chance of choosing when to act.


Although the rule is quite similar to the original, the important part is pointing out that the target uses up all his CAs, and more importantly why they are used up. It's the last part which my players did not like. It also maps out 'when', during the charge, the target can act.

It's not finished, but it's a start.
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Postby Verderer » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:30 pm

Grimolde wrote:
Verderer wrote:And which actions would you allow for the defender in the case of multiple CAs? I assuming no movement, because then he could just move out of the way, and a grotesque chase would ensue? :shock:
Well this is it. This is the question. A target with more CAs than the charger, seems to get a raw deal. But as I mentioned above, this is offset if I inform the players that it actually costs a CA to do nothing. Also, I do allow the target to simply move out of the way by expending a CA and moving up to his Move 8 allowance.
This where we differ, I guess. Having more or less CAs than another fellow isn't really relevant to me. You're quicker only if you have higher SR than the other bloke. The way I play it (so far) is that the charge takes place on the attacker's SR, so the defender normally would not be able to do anything anyways until it is his SR. (Or if he had higher SR, he would have already used one CA before the charge, he could have even charged the would be charger himself!). So the defender actually gets his one CA on the attacker's SR and therefore gets to attack/evade before his normal turn? And if he has a longer reach, he even gets to roll attack before the charger. So it's not really doing nothing as per se. I don't understand that spending CA to do nothing you mention, frankly.

Likewise, I wouldn't in any case allow movement CA for the defender of a charge, because it would nullify charge completely and might lead to that grotesque chase I mentioned briefly. The whole point of the charge rule is to make it possible actually, and the Evade reaction should be enough to portray running away.
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Postby Grimolde » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:17 pm

Verderer wrote:This where we differ, I guess. Having more or less CAs than another fellow isn't really relevant to me. You're quicker only if you have higher SR than the other bloke. The way I play it (so far) is that the charge takes place on the attacker's SR, so the defender normally would not be able to do anything anyways until it is his SR.
Whilst true it's hardly realisitic to expect a target, with say, 3 CAs, to just stand there not being able to do anything. That's why I'm looking to create new charge rules. My group just doesn't like that part of the game.
Verderer wrote:(Or if he had higher SR, he would have already used one CA before the charge, he could have even charged the would be charger himself!). So the defender actually gets his one CA on the attacker's SR and therefore gets to attack/evade before his normal turn?
True, but this is a different discussion on a different topic.
Verderer wrote:And if he has a longer reach, he even gets to roll attack before the charger. So it's not really doing nothing as per se. I don't understand that spending CA to do nothing you mention, frankly.
It's in the rules. During a combat round, you have to declare you are not doing anything, and this takes up 1 CA to do so. All I've done, is added reasons as to why they seem to end up spending CAs to do nothing, when receiving a charge.
Verderer wrote:Likewise, I wouldn't in any case allow movement CA for the defender of a charge, because it would nullify charge completely and might lead to that grotesque chase I mentioned briefly. The whole point of the charge rule is to make it possible actually, and the Evade reaction should be enough to portray running away.
Most charges on the battlefield usually come about one of three ways, a) both combatants choose to fight, and both charge, b) one charges and the target decides not to charge back (perhaps he doesn't want to leave a fortified location or something), c) the target is oblivious to the impending charge, and gets charged.

The only reason I know why a charge would not work is if the target was aware of the charger, and simply moves out of the way. Be that backward, or sideways as in the Evade rule, or he simply 'moves' out of range.

My point is, sure the target can spend a CA to move away if he wants to do so.
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Postby Verderer » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:41 pm

Grimolde wrote:Whilst true it's hardly realisitic to expect a target, with say, 3 CAs, to just stand there not being able to do anything. That's why I'm looking to create new charge rules. My group just doesn't like that part of the game.
It's not entirely realistic that is true, but I am sure the designer had a good reason to make this rule. At the moment I just can't say why (or even excatly how) this rule works.

A question, which one of these is the quickest character: character A, who has SR 18 and 4 CA; or character B, who has SR 21 and 3 CA?
Grimolde wrote:
Verderer]Grimolde wrote:(Or if he had higher SR, he would have already used one CA before the charge, he could have even charged the would be charger himself!). So the defender actually gets his one CA on the attacker's SR and therefore gets to attack/evade before his normal turn?
True, but this is a different discussion on a different topic.

I put to you it is not a different topic, but precisely the reason why the defender shouldn't be allowed any extra CA or movement. To repeat 1) it is not his SR; and 2) he's only allowed one action in the RAW.
Grimolde wrote:It's in the rules. During a combat round, you have to declare you are not doing anything, and this takes up 1 CA to do so. All I've done, is added reasons as to why they seem to end up spending CAs to do nothing, when receiving a charge.
Can you give me the page where this is said, I need to check this one?
Grimolde wrote:Most charges on the battlefield usually come about one of three ways, a) both combatants choose to fight, and both charge, b) one charges and the target decides not to charge back (perhaps he doesn't want to leave a fortified location or something), c) the target is oblivious to the impending charge, and gets charged.

The only reason I know why a charge would not work is if the target was aware of the charger, and simply moves out of the way. Be that backward, or sideways as in the Evade rule, or he simply 'moves' out of range.

My point is, sure the target can spend a CA to move away if he wants to do so.
My point is, he can't. :lol:

At least not in the RAW. It's all very well to talk about simultaneous actions, but these rules only simulate them so far. The actions are actually very clearly ordered, and my concern is that once you start modifiying some actions, they will be broken.
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Postby Grimolde » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:11 pm

Verderer wrote:A question, which one of these is the quickest character: character A, who has SR 18 and 4 CA; or character B, who has SR 21 and 3 CA?
The one with SR 21 acts faster, but the other acts more often.
Grimolde wrote:
Verderer]Grimolde wrote:(Or if he had higher SR, he would have already used one CA before the charge, he could have even charged the would be charger himself!). So the defender actually gets his one CA on the attacker's SR and therefore gets to attack/evade before his normal turn?
True, but this is a different discussion on a different topic.
Verderer wrote:I put to you it is not a different topic, but precisely the reason why the defender shouldn't be allowed any extra CA or movement. To repeat 1) it is not his SR; and 2) he's only allowed one action in the RAW.
It's not about his SR, it's about his ability to act during the charger's charge. They are different beasts. The 'only allowed one action' is the issue here, granted.
Grimolde wrote:It's in the rules. During a combat round, you have to declare you are not doing anything, and this takes up 1 CA to do so. All I've done, is added reasons as to why they seem to end up spending CAs to do nothing, when receiving a charge.
Verderer wrote:Can you give me the page where this is said, I need to check this one?
It's on page 84, found in the list of things that can be done by spending a CA.
Grimolde wrote:Most charges on the battlefield usually come about one of three ways, a) both combatants choose to fight, and both charge, b) one charges and the target decides not to charge back (perhaps he doesn't want to leave a fortified location or something), c) the target is oblivious to the impending charge, and gets charged.

The only reason I know why a charge would not work is if the target was aware of the charger, and simply moves out of the way. Be that backward, or sideways as in the Evade rule, or he simply 'moves' out of range.

My point is, sure the target can spend a CA to move away if he wants to do so.
Verderer wrote:My point is, he can't. :lol:
I know. It's also the point of most posters on here, I'm just saying it isn't a rule I'm happy with, so I'm looking to change it. The above was an example as to 'why' I want to change it.
Verderer wrote:At least not in the RAW. It's all very well to talk about simultaneous actions, but these rules only simulate them so far. The actions are actually very clearly ordered, and my concern is that once you start modifiying some actions, they will be broken.
You are of course, entitled to your opinion, and I respect it. I don't however, see it your way.

EDIT: Besides, my house rule still allows the target to do nothing but evade or meet the attack, as per the rules. All I've done is given a reason as to why he has to spend CAs to do nothing, and added the rule that states the target can expend CAs to perfom other actions if he wants to do so.
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Postby Grimolde » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:23 pm

Here's a good one.

3 combatants:

A. SR 22, 3 CA
B. SR 19, 3 CA
C. SR 14, 4 CA

1st Round
A and B fight it out, C watches

A. SR 22, 2 CA
B. SR 19, 2 CA
C. SR 14, 3 CA

2nd Round
A and B fight it out, C watches

A. SR 22, 1 CA
B. SR 19, 1 CA
C. SR 14, 2 CA

3rd Round
A and B fight it out, C watches

A. SR 22, 0 CA
B. SR 19, 0 CA
C. SR 14, 1 CA

4rd Round
A and B can't act, C charges A.

That doesn't look right, A is defenceless?
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Postby DamonJynx » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:33 am

Grimolde, I assume you mean this all happening in 1 round over 4 CA's.

IMO: C can't charge because charging allows the use of only 1 CA per round and he has already spent 3 of his CA watching the fight. That is why, when declaring a charge it can only be done on your first CA.
Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly
stopped dead, the charge only allows a single Combat Action
for the Attacker, their mount (if combat capable) and the
Defender during that round
He can however, move up to his movement on his 4th CA and attack gaining a minimum of 1 CM which is going to leave A up the proverbial creek.

On the other hand, if he had elected to charge A on his 1st CA, A would be in deep, deep trouble. A is facing off with B, therefore he is unaware of the charge. As charging takes up C's 1st, 2nd and 3rd CA his attack goes "off on his 4th CA. A can't defend, suffers the increased damage from the charge and a minimum of 1 CM. Nice knowing ya, A!
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Postby Grimolde » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:27 am

You are right, I'd forgotten about the charge declaration and all that .

Thank you
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Postby Verderer » Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:20 am

Heheh, I read the long combat example in the rulebook before going to bed, and noticed a couple of things that further muddy up the rule (unless this has been covered in some errata?) There one of the fighters, Thrace, has already used a CA to attack one of the trollkin, and successfully killed him in one blow. So now he has one CA left on the turn and is acting on the lowest SR of the bunch (so everyone else has finished). The example says Thrace now declares a charge! :shock:

Ok, and that is where the turns ends without the charge being resolved. On the second round Thrace finishes the charge and proceeds to chop the remaining trollkin into tiny pieces. He got a critical success, and the combat ends there, so we will never know what would have happened after the charge resolution, if any enemies had remained upright.

So all in all as charge is concerned, very confusing again. So far I have been of the strong opinion that a charge couldn't have been declared after the first CA in a round, but this seems to contradict it? Furthermore, the charge is for soem reason divided into two rounds, even if the distance doesn't appear to be overly long. I really don't know what to make of this in light of our recent discussion.

So I have to ask, is there anyone here who actually knows definitely how RAW charge works, or are you all just as confused as I am? :?
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Postby Grimolde » Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:53 am

Verderer wrote:Heheh, I read the long combat example in the rulebook before going to bed, and noticed a couple of things that further muddy up the rule (unless this has been covered in some errata?) There one of the fighters, Thrace, has already used a CA to attack one of the trollkin, and successfully killed him in one blow. So now he has one CA left on the turn and is acting on the lowest SR of the bunch (so everyone else has finished). The example says Thrace now declares a charge! :shock:
Are you sure?

*Goes to check*
Verderer wrote:Ok, and that is where the turns ends without the charge being resolved. On the second round Thrace finishes the charge and proceeds to chop the remaining trollkin into tiny pieces. He got a critical success, and the combat ends there, so we will never know what would have happened after the charge resolution, if any enemies had remained upright.
Unfortunate, that would have been interesting
Verderer wrote:So all in all as charge is concerned, very confusing again. So far I have been of the strong opinion that a charge couldn't have been declared after the first CA in a round, but this seems to contradict it?
I agree with you, I was under the impression that charges had to be declared on the first CA of your SR.
Verderer wrote:Furthermore, the charge is for soem reason divided into two rounds, even if the distance doesn't appear to be overly long. I really don't know what to make of this in light of our recent discussion.
I know how you feel, it's dissapointing and frustrating, I seem to overcome one issue only to walk into another.
Verderer wrote:So I have to ask, is there anyone here who actually knows definitely how RAW charge works, or are you all just as confused as I am? :?

Good question

I'm not sure the rules were designed with a grid combat mat in mind. Ok fair enough, but we use those mats, we enjoy using the tactical element it brings, but MRQ2 just isn't clear when it comes to tactical gridded combats.
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Postby Verderer » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:03 am

We don't use grids, but we do use miniatures to mark position. But movement tends to be more relative or vague, we don't use tape measures or anything. I wouldn't say the system isn't suited for tactical combat with grids or minis, it's just this charge that keep evading me. Once I got that sorted, it seems very playable, whatever method you apply?
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Postby Grimolde » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:08 am

Verderer wrote:We don't use grids, but we do use miniatures to mark position. But movement tends to be more relative or vague, we don't use tape measures or anything. I wouldn't say the system isn't suited for tactical combat with grids or minis, it's just this charge that keep evading me. Once I got that sorted, it seems very playable, whatever method you apply?
Agreed.

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