Shamanism for fun and Prophet

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PhilHibbs
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Postby PhilHibbs » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:13 pm

Vagni wrote:Why would she do that? The whole point of the binding is to set a trap someone else triggers.
My point was, the player doesn't want a one-use item. And especially doesn't want to pay Improvement Rolls for a one-use item!
Vagni wrote:If she wanted to be more direct she would unbind a suitable spirit with the discorporation skill (and not that many of them have it) or command one she already uses and leave it at that.
Surely, any spirit that can possess (overtly or covertly) has to have Discorporate?
Vagni wrote:Once the bottles open the binding is broken and the spirit does what comes naturally, inebriating the nearest person.
Again, I'm after something that isn't one-use. Should spending IRs on a spirit mean that the character can re-acquire the spirit or a similar one for free, kind of like how a divine cultist can get their spells back?
Deleriad
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Postby Deleriad » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:50 pm

PhilHibbs wrote:
Vagni wrote:Why would she do that? The whole point of the binding is to set a trap someone else triggers.
My point was, the player doesn't want a one-use item. And especially doesn't want to pay Improvement Rolls for a one-use item!
The system as written gives two main options.
1) play out trapping a spirit during game time in which case it costs no IRs.

2) Trap a spirit during downtime in which case IRs are used as a proxy for time and effort.

You can also use GM fiat and say that the spirit magician is looking for a spirit that is so much weaker than himself that he can simply do it during downtime without spending IRs. i.e. you can do whatever you think fits the needs of your game and the preferences of your players.

Finally you could enforce some notion of time and cost to acquiring spirits during downtime rather than spending IRs. An earlier draft of the article had suggestions for time and cost (analogous to buying common magic optional rule) but because such things are really campaign-specific and culturally determined we left them out.

If you want a downtime spirit-acquisition system which is based on time and money* rather than spending IRs then you could adopt the following rough, generic system based on intensity of spirit.
Intensity 1 - 100 silvers, 1 week.
Intensity 2 - 300 silvers, 2 weeks
Intensity 3 - 600 silvers, 3 weeks
Intensity 4 (+400), 5 (+500) and so on.

*not so much spending money as acquiring goods, services and sacrifices which are consumed during the process.

In this case spirit magicians are busy acquiring spirits rather than engaging in training or spending 10% of their time and income cult duties.

That said, as far as I can see the system in the core book simply isn't to your tastes. In which case use whatever system you like. Not much point trying to play with something you don't like.
PhilHibbs
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Postby PhilHibbs » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:27 pm

Deleriad wrote:The system as written gives two main options.
1) play out trapping a spirit during game time in which case it costs no IRs.
Which makes Spirit Magic the only magic system in which the character spends IRs for a one-use resource, which is a huge problem to me.
Deleriad wrote:That said, as far as I can see the system in the core book simply isn't to your tastes. In which case use whatever system you like. Not much point trying to play with something you don't like.
I think it's fixable.
Deleriad
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Postby Deleriad » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:53 pm

PhilHibbs wrote:
Deleriad wrote:That said, as far as I can see the system in the core book simply isn't to your tastes. In which case use whatever system you like. Not much point trying to play with something you don't like.
I think it's fixable.
Well perhaps the thing to do is for you to start a new thread e.g. "spirit magic fixed" otherwise this thread is likely to just go round in circles and confuse people.

Personally I don't see anything that needs fixing so if you start a new thread of things that need fixing and how you would fix them we can keep this thread for clarifying anything in the core rules and S&P articles which remains unclear.
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Postby Vagni » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:22 pm

More glossary terms that might help: :wink:

Haunt – a general term for various kinds of souls trapped in some form between the spirit world and the mortal plane. Ghosts and wraiths are both examples of such creatures. Haunts are often semi-corporeal.

Binding – spirit magicians can bind spirits into a fetish to hold them on the mortal plane. A binding holds the spirit safely until the fetish is broken, or the spirit is released. Binding has the advantage of protecting the spirit from attacking spirits or spells but does remove the spirit from any access to the spirit plane and thus it is unable to regain its magic points. Most spirits dislike being bound.

Fetish – a physical object used as the binding to hold a spirit. A fetish can be almost anything from a huge stone monolith to a feather or a tattoo, but they are usually portable objects with some link to the type of spirit being held within them.

Fetch - A fetch is a shaman’s guardian spirit, which is usually related in form or nature to the totem spirit of his tribe or cult. The fetch aids the shaman, protecting and guiding him in the spirit world. It is in every way his spirit brother. Fetches provide many benefits and responsibilities for a shaman.


Also a basic spirit template to use when designing spirits, use it in conjunction with the Core rules and/or S&P articles:

Spirit Template

Intensity :
POW :
INT :
CHA :
CA (determined from average of INT+POW, see table on p.9 Core rules) :
SR (determined from average of INT+CHA) :
MP (equal to POW) :
Damage bonus (see table on p.139 Core rules) :
Movement: POW in metres

Skills: Spirit Combat (POW x 5%), Persistence (POW x 4%)
May also possess Discorporation (POW x 5%) and Stealth (POW x 4%).
Other skills are also possible, for example Common Magic, Influence, Insight, Lore (Shamanic Tradition), Lore (Spirit World), other Lores and Perception, depending upon the nature of the spirit.

Traits: All spirits have the traits of Life Sense and Magic Sense.
They may also possess the traits of Possession (gaining the Possession skill and possibly Stealth skill if they covertly possess). Most spirits are also Persistent in their effects.
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gran_orco
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Postby gran_orco » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:07 am

In the spirit request table, the point 8 is magical sacrifice, magic points for example. Is this sacrifice permanent or temporal?

Could we see an article in S&P to know how can a shaman replenish the magic points of a bound spirit?
Deleriad
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Postby Deleriad » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:52 am

gran_orco wrote:In the spirit request table, the point 8 is magical sacrifice, magic points for example. Is this sacrifice permanent or temporal?
Depends on the spirit and nature of sacrifice. It could be anything from dedicating POW (like a Pact), obligation to spend X Magic Points daily/weekly/yearly or even losing 1 POW. Note though that regaining POW in RQII through Improvement rolls is *extremely* expensive.
gran_orco wrote: Could we see an article in S&P to know how can a shaman replenish the magic points of a bound spirit?
There is one example given in S&P already. Blood Magic will have more but I suspect that Mongoose would rather have people buy it. The default is that it is either impossible or very hard (time-consuming, expensive in some way) to replenish the Magic Points of a bound spirit. That said, if you want to make it easy and common place in a campaign simply go for it.
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Postby Simulacrum » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:57 pm

PhilHibbs wrote: OK, next question. Yrsa wants to use the spirit to attack someone. She commands it to come out of the binding object. It is now still on the mundane plane, though, and so can't initiate Spirit Combat. What next? Does it just leave the mundane plane and go to the spirit plane, and from there to discorporate the target? Does it have to make a roll to breach the barrier between worlds itself? Is it still bound to the fetish if it has left the mundane plane?

Discorporating, crossing the barrier between worlds, has traditionally been a difficult process. This is why I'm not too happy about the "enforced discorporation" that starts a Spirit Combat. Getting to the Spirit Plane should be at least a little bit tricky, but why do shamans bother with the ritual, why don't they just get a tame spirit to Discorporate them in a single action?
In Age of Treason, spirits have a Manifestation trait - essentially the reverse of a Discorporation trait. So they can make themselves known, interect and engage in spectral combat in the physical plane. Different types of spirits are entitled to manifest themselves under different circumstances, and the ability to force someone into spirit combat, and what they can do to a losing victim is similarly restricted both by type and level of manifestation skill. Certain spells (and sometimes spirit binding) can be used to force them to manifest too. It's a different take and setting specific, a departure from the RQII standard where all spirit action involves jumping into the spirit plane - it allows for the reverse process. It is harder for a mortal to project to the spirit plane than it is for a spirit to affect the physical plane. I hope there will be a preview up on the site within 10 days for those who are interested!
gran_orco
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Postby gran_orco » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:22 pm

Deleriad wrote:
gran_orco wrote: Could we see an article in S&P to know how can a shaman replenish the magic points of a bound spirit?
There is one example given in S&P already. Blood Magic will have more but I suspect that Mongoose would rather have people buy it. The default is that it is either impossible or very hard (time-consuming, expensive in some way) to replenish the Magic Points of a bound spirit. That said, if you want to make it easy and common place in a campaign simply go for it.
That is exactly what I want to know: if there will be a book explaining this or if we can obtain more information in a future article, as i think that it is important to complete the spirit magic rules.
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Postby gran_orco » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:39 am

I forgot to tell you that it is very important to know how can a bound spirit regain its MP in the fetish because a shaman MUST win the spirit combat to force the spirit to inhabit the fetish (a sickness or bane spirit, for example), so it will have 0 mp when it is captured. It will be useless when it is released.
PhilHibbs
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Postby PhilHibbs » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:49 am

gran_orco wrote:I forgot to tell you that it is very important to know how can a bound spirit regain its MP in the fetish because a shaman MUST win the spirit combat to force the spirit to inhabit the fetish (a sickness or bane spirit, for example), so it will have 0 mp when it is captured. It will be useless when it is released.
I think that bound spirits aren't really meant to be released to do anything active. The days of shamans using spirits as attack dogs are over, that just isn't how they are supposed to operate in MRQ2. I think they can still enter the shaman and give her their benefit even though they have 0MP. It does make them very easy to dismiss, though.
Deleriad
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Postby Deleriad » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:52 am

gran_orco wrote:I forgot to tell you that it is very important to know how can a bound spirit regain its MP in the fetish because a shaman MUST win the spirit combat to force the spirit to inhabit the fetish (a sickness or bane spirit, for example), so it will have 0 mp when it is captured. It will be useless when it is released.
That point is explicitly addressed in signs & portents 90.
A bound spirit is trapped in the mortal world and unable to regenerate Magic Points. Yet to bind a spirit the Shaman needs to defeat it in spirit combat by reducing it to zero Magic Points. This makes the straightforward binding of an aggressive attack spirit such as a bane rather pointless. For this reason, any spirit magician wishing to bind such a spirit for later use needs to find a way to allow the spirit to regenerate some or all of its Magic Points. Of course, as stated last time, a Shaman does not have to bind spirits to a fetish. It is possible to defeat a spirit in combat and then bind it to a single, future service to be agreed later.
And later
one generic option is to allow a spirit magician to transfer his own Magic Points to a bound spirit he controls with a suitable ritual and a Spirit Binding skill roll. The Magic Points are transferred at a rate of one per hour. This means the spirit magician can ‘recharge’ his bound spirit’s Magic Points as part of a long and involved ritual.
Also, something I notice now that I re-read it. As far as I can see, you don't have to drive a spirit to zero Magic Points to defeat it. Once you have reduced a spirit to zero MPs you can automatically bind it, disperse it and so on. An overmatched spirit can simply *surrender* before this happens and allow you to bind it. After all, if it fights to 0 Magic Points there's no guarantee that a spirit magician won't do something worse than binding it.

Hope that helps.

PS As Phil says. The assumption is that you don't generally use bound spirits as attack dogs. Generally you would ask a spirit contact or ally to fight for you or do it yourself. Defeating a spirit and binding it to a single future service will also do the trick. Of course if you use the MP transfer option above there's nothing stopping you binding aggressive spirits for later use.
gran_orco
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Postby gran_orco » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:37 pm

Deleriad wrote:
gran_orco wrote:I forgot to tell you that it is very important to know how can a bound spirit regain its MP in the fetish because a shaman MUST win the spirit combat to force the spirit to inhabit the fetish (a sickness or bane spirit, for example), so it will have 0 mp when it is captured. It will be useless when it is released.
That point is explicitly addressed in signs & portents 90.
Yes, I know. The article in both S&P 89 and 90 is awesome and very well axplained. It helped a lot.
But I think that a shaman with 4 spirits cannot wait POW15x4 =60x10h= 600 hours (25 days!) to replenish mp of 4 captured spirits, so there will be faster rituals. That is what I am doing the question. :lol:
Deleriad wrote:And later
one generic option is to allow a spirit magician to transfer his own Magic Points to a bound spirit he controls with a suitable ritual and a Spirit Binding skill roll. The Magic Points are transferred at a rate of one per hour. This means the spirit magician can ‘recharge’ his bound spirit’s Magic Points as part of a long and involved ritual.
Also, something I notice now that I re-read it. As far as I can see, you don't have to drive a spirit to zero Magic Points to defeat it. Once you have reduced a spirit to zero MPs you can automatically bind it, disperse it and so on. An overmatched spirit can simply *surrender* before this happens and allow you to bind it. After all, if it fights to 0 Magic Points there's no guarantee that a spirit magician won't do something worse than binding it.

Page 21 of S&P 89:
if the magician wishes to send such a spirit against an enemy the usual procedure is to journey to the spirit plane and defeat the appropriate spirit; once defeated the shaman can compel the spirit to one service. (...) Once the spirit has regained its Magic Points it will journey to the target and attack it. Alternately the shaman may command the defeated spirit to perform one service in the future.

I did understand all of this. I am saying only that there is a need to know more rules to replenish mp without waiting so long. And I want to know where I could find it. :wink: Meanwhile, shamans of my group will play with only a pair of spirits of 1 use while sorcerers and other magic users have 5-6 permanent spells.
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Postby Mugen » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:57 pm

gran_orco wrote:Yes, I know. The article in both S&P 89 and 90 is awesome and very well axplained. It helped a lot.
But I think that a shaman with 4 spirits cannot wait POW15x4 =60x10h= 600 hours (25 days!) to replenish mp of 4 captured spirits, so there will be faster rituals. That is what I am doing the question. :lol:
Why x4 ?
I was assuming the spirits regain their MPs at the same rate, no mater the number of bound spirits.
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Postby duncan_disorderly » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:07 pm

Mugen wrote:
gran_orco wrote: But I think that a shaman with 4 spirits cannot wait POW15x4 =60x10h= 600 hours (25 days!) to replenish mp of 4 captured spirits, so there will be faster rituals. That is what I am doing the question. :lol:
Why x4 ?
I was assuming the spirits regain their MPs at the same rate, no mater the number of bound spirits.
They Shaman is Transferring his MP to the spirit at a rate of 1 per hour. He could, I suppose transfer them in parallel, but for 4 spirits that's a cost to him of 4MP/Hour - it's the additional x10h I don't follow. I make it 2.5 days (60h) to recharge 4 x 15POW spirits at 1MP per hour.
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Postby Deleriad » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:55 pm

gran_orco wrote:I did understand all of this. I am saying only that there is a need to know more rules to replenish mp without waiting so long. And I want to know where I could find it. :wink: Meanwhile, shamans of my group will play with only a pair of spirits of 1 use while sorcerers and other magic users have 5-6 permanent spells.
I can only say that I have no plans to write any more on the subject and other than Blood Magic I'm not aware of any other plans. I suspect that any expansions would be best being setting specific. For example The Age of Treason looks like it has some neat changes to the spirit rules so you might be better off borrowing ideas from that.
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Postby PhilHibbs » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:07 pm

gran_orco wrote:I did understand all of this. I am saying only that there is a need to know more rules to replenish mp without waiting so long. And I want to know where I could find it.
You aren't supposed to be able to do it, so I wouldn't expect to find rules for how to do the impossible.
gran_orco wrote:Meanwhile, shamans of my group will play with only a pair of spirits of 1 use while sorcerers and other magic users have 5-6 permanent spells.
It's tricky to keep that number of spells up constantly, unless you're referring to the Enchanting rules in A&E.
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Postby sdavies2720 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:38 pm

gran_orco wrote:I forgot to tell you that it is very important to know how can a bound spirit regain its MP in the fetish because a shaman MUST win the spirit combat to force the spirit to inhabit the fetish (a sickness or bane spirit, for example), so it will have 0 mp when it is captured. It will be useless when it is released.
I always assumed that the spirit regained MP at the standard rate. But this is MUCH more interesting -- maybe the quality/tuning of the fetish affects how quickly they regain:
  • Fetish is any old rock you find: No MP regained
  • Fetish is 'appropriate' but not enchanted: MP regained at 1/12 rate (double hourly and that's the amount per day)
  • Fetish has been consecrated: MP regained at standard rate
Obviously, you could refine this a lot. So jamming a spirit into something inappropriate keeps them cut off from their magic -- if they weren't mad when they were bound, they certainly will be before long.

Steve

[Edit: Merde, I didn't see the whole OTHER page of comments. I haven't read the S&P articles, but clearly from the discussion I need to]
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Postby PhilHibbs » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:52 pm

sdavies2720 wrote:...maybe the quality/tuning of the fetish affects how quickly they regain:
  • Fetish is any old rock you find: No MP regained
Which for an Earth Elemental might be the perfect binding object... :)
gran_orco
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Postby gran_orco » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:00 pm

PhilHibbs wrote:
gran_orco wrote:I did understand all of this. I am saying only that there is a need to know more rules to replenish mp without waiting so long. And I want to know where I could find it.
You aren't supposed to be able to do it, so I wouldn't expect to find rules for how to do the impossible.
Impossible? page 18 of S&P 90: "There are also various other ways to replenish a spirit’s Magic Points while it is bound. The forthcoming supplement Blood Magic explores methods such as Avulsion."
Is Blood Magic another book, or a future article in S&P?
Said that, you can replenish mp of a spirit while it is bound at a rate of 1 mp/hour through a long ritual (I interpret this as the shaman must be chanting/dancing/concentrating during this time). I misread the rule: I said 60x10h, but it should be 60 mp x 1h= 60 hours.
Why did you say that I am not supposed to be able to do that? :roll:
PhilHibbs wrote:
gran_orco wrote:Meanwhile, shamans of my group will play with only a pair of spirits of 1 use while sorcerers and other magic users have 5-6 permanent spells.
It's tricky to keep that number of spells up constantly, unless you're referring to the Enchanting rules in A&E.
I am refering that a sorcerer can do a spell like FLY or DAMAGE ENHANCEMENT many times spending only 1 mp, again, again, again... A shaman can call a spirit (evil spirit, I mean) one time and then disappears. Later he must spend more IR and time to call another spirit. If he calls a bound spirit he can use it until it reaches 0 mp and banish (so again, he must search other spirit...)

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