garottes, what are they good for?

Discover the Legend RPG, Mongoose's fantasy game.
johnnyq
Shrew
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 12:08 pm
Location: Western Australia

garottes, what are they good for?

Postby johnnyq » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:45 am

Hi, I am struggling to understand the value of strangling someone with a garotte (does 1d3 damage per CA) vs barehanded strangling (1d3 to selected location, per CA).

Can anyone point out what I'm missing?

Rusty
CramaL
Shrew
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:34 pm

Postby CramaL » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:31 am

It would be logic that you can attach the garotte and then go away, during the garotte is still doing his effect, which is impossible with your hands.

And you can too choose the location by choosing the location where you attach the garotte (it may too be possible to use the garotte as a tool to first aid)
User avatar
Lord High Munchkin
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1292
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:12 am
Location: Vancouver, where the rainbow ends/Oxford, occasionally, in an ivory tower

Postby Lord High Munchkin » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:34 am

Thanatar.
The desire for a "definitive, ultimate answer" is, in fact, classified by modern psychiatric medicine as a mental illness.
johnnyq
Shrew
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 12:08 pm
Location: Western Australia

Postby johnnyq » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:18 am

Thanatar
Yes, I can see cult tradition is an important factor, but is there not some advantage to using a tool over ones bare hands?

Rusty
User avatar
Lord High Munchkin
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1292
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:12 am
Location: Vancouver, where the rainbow ends/Oxford, occasionally, in an ivory tower

Postby Lord High Munchkin » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:38 am

johnnyq wrote: Yes, I can see cult tradition is an important factor, but is there not some advantage to using a tool over ones bare hands?
The head comes off.
The desire for a "definitive, ultimate answer" is, in fact, classified by modern psychiatric medicine as a mental illness.
Raegenhere (Huscarl)
Stoat
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:38 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: garottes, what are they good for?

Postby Raegenhere (Huscarl) » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:53 am

johnnyq wrote:Hi, I am struggling to understand the value of strangling someone with a garotte (does 1d3 damage per CA) vs barehanded strangling (1d3 to selected location, per CA).

Can anyone point out what I'm missing?

Rusty
Not sure where you got the 1D3 for the garrotte damage?

An unsuspecting victim only (surprised) can be garrotted.

In A&EII the entry for Garrotte adds:
-------------------------------------------
Each Combat Action (CA) the garrotte is held in place after it has been successfully applied, the target must make a Resilience skill test at a cumulative -5% penalty or take 1D2 plus Damage Modifier directly to the head. A garrotte can't be used against an opponent that is two SIZ greater than the wielder.

In CORE the entry has:
---------------------------
Whilst being strangled, the victim can attempt to wrestle free, or damage his opponent so badly they are forced to let go - but acts at a penalty due to the strangler being directly behind him.

I'd also assume that the person being garrotted can't cry out or warn anyone.

LHM "They take the heads! They always take the heads!" :-)
CramaL
Shrew
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:34 pm

Postby CramaL » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:03 pm

"Each Combat Action (CA) the garrotte is held in place"
I think this is the most important avantage : you don't need any CA to hold the garotte in place, just to apply it. During it's held in place you can do something else with your hand : when you strangle with your hand you can't do anything else.

Normaly it's quasi impossible to someone who is strangled with a garrot to get it off himself, so time to die isn't an important problem
johnnyq
Shrew
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 12:08 pm
Location: Western Australia

Postby johnnyq » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:28 pm

Raegenhere, you're right - I don't know where 1d3 for the garrotte came from - its does even LESS damage than using your hands? Also, the A&E entry suggests the garrotte has to be held in place...

CramaL, are you sure the garrotte doesn't need to be held in place (and thus use up your CAs)? The part from A&E is ambiguous IMO... Are garrottes like twist-ties on garbage bags? they stay closed once applied?

Not trying to be difficult, but wanting to justify using a garrotte over simply strangling bare-handed (and cutting the head off later). It would be nice if there was a mechanical basis to using a garrotte.

Thanks for all your ideas, gents.

Rusty
Raegenhere (Huscarl)
Stoat
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:38 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Postby Raegenhere (Huscarl) » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:43 pm

johnnyq wrote:Raegenhere, you're right - I don't know where 1d3 for the garrotte came from - its does even LESS damage than using your hands? Also, the A&E entry suggests the garrotte has to be held in place...

CramaL, are you sure the garrotte doesn't need to be held in place (and thus use up your CAs)? The part from A&E is ambiguous IMO... Are garrottes like twist-ties on garbage bags? they stay closed once applied?

Not trying to be difficult, but wanting to justify using a garrotte over simply strangling bare-handed (and cutting the head off later). It would be nice if there was a mechanical basis to using a garrotte.

Thanks for all your ideas, gents.

Rusty
You could perhaps also consider some part of the Asphyxiation / Suffocation / Drowning rule on page 54-55 of CORE.

Something along the lines of all skill attempts at -40% (Hard) while struggling for air.
Raegenhere (Huscarl)
Stoat
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:38 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Postby Raegenhere (Huscarl) » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:48 pm

Raegenhere (Huscarl) wrote:
johnnyq wrote:Raegenhere, you're right - I don't know where 1d3 for the garrotte came from - its does even LESS damage than using your hands? Also, the A&E entry suggests the garrotte has to be held in place...

CramaL, are you sure the garrotte doesn't need to be held in place (and thus use up your CAs)? The part from A&E is ambiguous IMO... Are garrottes like twist-ties on garbage bags? they stay closed once applied?

Not trying to be difficult, but wanting to justify using a garrotte over simply strangling bare-handed (and cutting the head off later). It would be nice if there was a mechanical basis to using a garrotte.

Thanks for all your ideas, gents.

Rusty
You could perhaps also consider some part of the Asphyxiation / Suffocation / Drowning rule on page 54-55 of CORE.

Something along the lines of all skill attempts at -40% (Hard) while struggling for air.
With the person behind them, you'd probably add another -20% for Close Combat Situational Modifiers is they want to hit the assassin unarmed or with a weapon.

That would be a whopping -60% straight off their skill. Also, just thinking about it, as the target is effectively surprised, they would be considered as not parrying, therefore, assuming the assassin got a normal garrotte roll, they could also apply an additional CM - say Disarm Opponent / Trip Opponent if that was allowed (although, I guess some would argue that a garrotte is really a 2 hand weapon and better if you pull the guy over your shoulder or can get him to the ground and kneel on his back).
Simulacrum
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 386
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:23 pm

Postby Simulacrum » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:52 pm

Garrote (sic) refers to the stick you twist it with to tighten rather than the wire, cord or strap itself. Clearly there's room for strangling someone just by holding both ends, but that's likely a two handed job. Twisting the stick should probably (I've never tried) be one hand on stick, one gripping the victim or fending off his struggles.

Then of course it could be a strap (suffocation and crushing) or a wire (with Bleed combat manoeuvre?), or something inbetween. Some purpose-made garrotes apparently also had a spike in the back to push into the spinal cord at the same time. I guess that's probably the fixed variety used for execution with the victim strapped into a chair.

But IMHO CM's should be deployed here, with a Stun Location (head) thanks to cutting off oxygen and blood flow to the brain and Bleed if using a wire, thanks to important arteries close to the surface. THat gives the Garrote hands down advantage over simple strangulation.

On the CA the garrote is applied perhaps the automatic CM (assuming surprise) should be to drag the victim off his balance (Trip?), giving him a penalty for resistance rolls. I'd heavily penalise non-surprise attacks, and ask for a Stealth roll before the attempt.

Once applied, my guess would be you could try for opposed Brawn vs Resilience or Brawn vs Brawn (so long as victim is conscious) each CA for the chance to add your STR bonus to the 1D2, and if you get a level or more of advantage you can deploy a CM. If you are really nasty you could allow a movie style Critical CM to take the head off.
CramaL
Shrew
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:34 pm

Postby CramaL » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:02 pm

johnnyq wrote: CramaL, are you sure the garrotte doesn't need to be held in place (and thus use up your CAs)? The part from A&E is ambiguous IMO... Are garrottes like twist-ties on garbage bags? they stay closed once applied?
On my mind, garotte are peice of leather or string, so they can be held in place with a knot. It would perhaps take an extra CA to fix, but it seems logic (or it can be used like a little gallows).
Mongoose Pete
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 6:36 am
Location: Boden, Sweden

Postby Mongoose Pete » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:04 pm

johnnyq wrote:ot trying to be difficult, but wanting to justify using a garrotte over simply strangling bare-handed (and cutting the head off later). It would be nice if there was a mechanical basis to using a garrotte.
The original concept was that:

1) the garrotte when used on a surprised foe, automatically affected the head location.

2) if successfully applied, the wielder no longer has to make attack rolls and the damage cannot be parried. Damage is automatic each CA. (This unfortunately is not clear in the text)

3) the victim has a serious penalty to striking his garotter.

If you are strangling someone with your hands, i.e. grappling, the strangler must reroll his attack each CA, which the victim can oppose with his unarmed skill potentially blocking the damage.

Garottes only doing 1d2 instead of 1d3 was an attempt to model a reasonable strangulation time. If someone was trying to strangle an opponent with his bare hands, I would personally reduce his unarmed damage to 1 point per CA. The damaging force of a gripping hand is not all that great in comparison to being kicked in the windpipe for example.

Does that help?
User avatar
Lord High Munchkin
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1292
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:12 am
Location: Vancouver, where the rainbow ends/Oxford, occasionally, in an ivory tower

Postby Lord High Munchkin » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:12 pm

Don't forget that the other heads would be biting your lower back/backside!
The desire for a "definitive, ultimate answer" is, in fact, classified by modern psychiatric medicine as a mental illness.
Raegenhere (Huscarl)
Stoat
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:38 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Postby Raegenhere (Huscarl) » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:31 pm

Lord High Munchkin wrote:Don't forget that the other heads would be biting your lower back/backside!
Thanatar (it's 1987 since I saw them last in Cults of Terror) I guess would be a good model for the Wen in 13th Warrior? :wink:
johnnyq
Shrew
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 12:08 pm
Location: Western Australia

Postby johnnyq » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:19 am

Mongoose Pete wrote:The original concept was that:

1) the garrotte when used on a surprised foe, automatically affected the head location.

2) if successfully applied, the wielder no longer has to make attack rolls and the damage cannot be parried. Damage is automatic each CA. (This unfortunately is not clear in the text)

3) the victim has a serious penalty to striking his garotter.

If you are strangling someone with your hands, i.e. grappling, the strangler must reroll his attack each CA, which the victim can oppose with his unarmed skill potentially blocking the damage.

Garottes only doing 1d2 instead of 1d3 was an attempt to model a reasonable strangulation time. If someone was trying to strangle an opponent with his bare hands, I would personally reduce his unarmed damage to 1 point per CA. The damaging force of a gripping hand is not all that great in comparison to being kicked in the windpipe for example.

Does that help?
Yes! This is very helpful, thanks!

Rusty

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 76 guests