Combat Maneuvers in Practice

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Narl
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Combat Maneuvers in Practice

Postby Narl » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:41 am

I've read through the RuneQuest II combat section and I'm having trouble with the effect combat maneuvers may have on the pacing of the game. I'm imagining things coming to a bit of a halt every time a player or GM has to pick an optimal maneuver (or two) from what is a fairly large list.

Seeing a list of maneuvers next to each weapon made me feel a bit better about it -- limiting the choices to a simpler list -- then I realized that the list with each weapon is not the full list of options for that weapon, but it a list of maneuvers specific to that weapon, but other maneuvers are options, unless they are specific to another weapon type. Maybe I am reading this wrong?

Can someone who has played with these rules offer up how it works in with the flow of combat? This is one area for me that I don't see "falling into the background" like RQ rules, in my mind, should.

Otherwise, beautiful book and I'm liking everything else I've read so far!
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Postby algauble » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:13 am

Also, if I may ask a related question, what is the mechanic for activating a combat maneuver? Succeed by a certain margin? Beat opponent by a certain margin? Something else?
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Postby TrippyHippy » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:00 am

I think Loz mentioned that it will take a bit of time for people to adjust to the way the new system works - like a couple of sessions or summat. I think he also mentioned that there is a possibility of ignoring the new elements to streamline the game.

I still haven't got hold of the game myself, but it does seem clear that the combat is a significant element of the new edition - both as a selling point, and as a point of complexity you need to master in order to get the most out the game.
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Postby Mongoose Pete » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:23 am

algauble wrote:Also, if I may ask a related question, what is the mechanic for activating a combat maneuver? Succeed by a certain margin? Beat opponent by a certain margin? Something else?
Assuming you pass your skill check, you gain combat manoeuvres by beating your opponent's level of success.
Last edited by Mongoose Pete on Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Combat Maneuvers in Practice

Postby Mongoose Pete » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:38 am

Narl wrote:Can someone who has played with these rules offer up how it works in with the flow of combat? This is one area for me that I don't see "falling into the background" like RQ rules, in my mind, should.
It only takes a session or two before they fall neatly into the background. It may look like a large list, but in practice you pick them up very quickly.

If you find there's too many, then you can easily trim the list down to something your players are comfortable with, or drop them entirely if you find them too intrusive. :D
Otherwise, beautiful book and I'm liking everything else I've read so far!
Thanks!
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Postby Deleriad » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:23 am

Also something to realise is that most of these manoeuvres are tactics that previously you would have decided on before hand.
E.g. Deliberately trying to knock someone backwards is something that previously you would have declared first and tried it.
Now, say you want to knock someone back you have it in mind and wait until you win a combat manoeuvre then you can apply it afterwards.

Similarly, where before if you are trying to hit someone in head you would declare before hand, take -40% then make the roll, now you make your roll normally then wait for a CM.

Basically the decision time has been removed from before the attack is rolled to after the attack is rolled.

It does take time to get used to. I did find that indecisive players were a pain because getting a CM put them into a tailspin. However, if you do leave out CMs, you need to put various tactics back in because otherwise combat will become just swing and block.
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Postby Lord High Munchkin » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:16 pm

You could give players 10 seconds of real-time to decide—or loose the CM.
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Postby Jarec » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:18 pm

Personally I would like to see a small table of the combat maneuvers on the character sheet. In the test combat I ran everyone got very bored continuously asking me what maneuvers were available.
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Postby andakitty » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:51 pm

It doesn't sound too good to me. Just... like you took SB5 and stirred.

Oh, well. I ain't the target demographic anyway. My game of choice is early BRP like the original, real RQ and Stormbringer. For some reason you can't get SB1 as a pdf any more...

No sell for this. It's just a changing of names and sometimes the order in which things are done. Basically a waste of money for something done better in the past. Sorry, Mongoose, 'fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...'

Besides, you ruined any more sales to me just by having SB1 'deleted' in your little deal with Chaosium. Nice deal for you and your attempted redo of some of the best rpgs ever written, but I wonder how much business you soured on the way...guys like me who won't touch your stuff now.
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Postby Loz » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:59 pm

Jarec wrote:Personally I would like to see a small table of the combat maneuvers on the character sheet. In the test combat I ran everyone got very bored continuously asking me what maneuvers were available.
There wasn't room on the character sheet to fit them in; believe me I tried.

I did, however, produce a one-pager to have on the table to assist look-ups. Works very well.
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Postby Loz » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:12 am

It doesn't sound too good to me. Just... like you took SB5 and stirred.
I don't understand that assumption at all. The two are very different games, in look, feel and play. Could you explain how you've reached this conclusion?

No sell for this. It's just a changing of names and sometimes the order in which things are done. Basically a waste of money for something done better in the past. Sorry, Mongoose, 'fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...'
Sorry you feel this way. I won't try to convince you otherwise (although I think you're wrong).
Besides, you ruined any more sales to me just by having SB1 'deleted' in your little deal with Chaosium. Nice deal for you and your attempted redo of some of the best rpgs ever written, but I wonder how much business you soured on the way...guys like me who won't touch your stuff now.
Ummm... Chaosium were doing precisely nothing with the Eternal Champion line before Mongoose acquired the license. It had become a millstone for them and they had no intentions of producing any material save for in the monograph format. Moorcock wasn't happy with the deal either. But I don't think this was some conspiratorial attempt to get SB1 deleted or otherwise; on the contrary, there's been more Elric material since Mongoose got the license than Chaosium had managed to produce in some years before that. And even if Chaosium had retained the license who's to say that, with four later editions of the game they wouldn't have deleted SB1 from Drivethru themselves?

But you have your viewpoint; that's clear. I get that you don't think RQII's for you and that's fine. We should agree to disagree on its quality, merits and so forth - but I will say again that its nothing like SB1, save for those similarities most BRP-based games share.
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Postby Mongoose Pete » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:17 am

andakitty wrote:It doesn't sound too good to me. Just... like you took SB5 and stirred.
I'm sorry, what did you mean by this exactly?
No sell for this. It's just a changing of names and sometimes the order in which things are done. Basically a waste of money for something done better in the past. Sorry, Mongoose, 'fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...'
I suppose you are entitled to your opinion, but I think that's a bit harsh if you haven't bought the book and actually run it a few times to see how it worked. :(
Besides, you ruined any more sales to me just by having SB1 'deleted' in your little deal with Chaosium. Nice deal for you and your attempted redo of some of the best rpgs ever written, but I wonder how much business you soured on the way...guys like me who won't touch your stuff now.
In our defence I would say that Loz and I listened very carefully to the criticisms of MRQ and have done our best to solve the problems. The rules have been completely overhauled, a more dynamic (and I believe more MGF) combat system has been introduced, and even the book itself has been printed at the highest quality. We've bent over backwards to make this a damn fine version of RQ.

Hopefully this level of effort and dedication will bring back those folks who were disappointed by Mongooses' first attempt. With that in mind, perhaps you'll give it a chance, borrow a copy and give it a read before summarily dismissing it out of hand?
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Postby weasel_fierce » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:14 am

Mongoose Pete wrote:
Hopefully this level of effort and dedication will bring back those folks who were disappointed by Mongooses' first attempt. With that in mind, perhaps you'll give it a chance, borrow a copy and give it a read before summarily dismissing it out of hand?
The only thing he'll pay for is a word for word reprint of the Chaosium 2nd edition Runequest book. Anything else is part of some sort of shadowy conspiracy where Mongoose managed to somehow con Stafford into giving them a license for a game, while cheating Chaosium out of being able to publish the hundreds of thousands of BRP books they have been publishing the past 10 years
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Postby superc0ntra » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:57 am

Hopefully this level of effort and dedication will bring back those folks who were disappointed by Mongooses' first attempt.
That it did.
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Postby gran_orco » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:28 am

I think this is the best RQ version ever. (I loved chaosium RQ). The new system is perfect (but it requires playing a pair of sessions).
Congratulations. I am really very very happy (although my book has a deficiency on a corner -broken paper inside-, not really important but annoying).
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Postby Blackyinkin » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:45 pm

Hi Guys,

Just to let you know that the playtesters really hammered these rules and stretched them to braking limit and our very hard to please gamers lapped them up. The playtest groups were all experienced playtesters, having playtested HQ2, OpenQuest and several other games.

I initially HATED combat Maneouvres, on paper that was, now I wouldn't do without them. I use a little card of the options which is given to each player, but nowadays they don't need them
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Postby Narl » Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:31 am

Blackyinkin wrote: I initially HATED combat Maneouvres, on paper that was, now I wouldn't do without them. I use a little card of the options which is given to each player, but nowadays they don't need them.
Good to hear!

Thanks everyone for your input on my question. I can't wait to give RQII a shot.
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Postby Shottglazz » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:37 pm

Having had the opportunity to use the combat maneuvers with Loz in-game, I have to say they add to the game nicely without slowing down combat.

As he stated, we use a sheet with all of the offensive & defensive maneuvers on the table and it takes all of about 30 seconds (at most) to decide which to use - and to have them resolved.
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Postby Nostrildamus » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:04 am

I haven't had a chance to run the game yet (will soon, though), but I can already see that combat maneuvers are going to be easy to implement. Considering tables are no longer referenced to determine each attack/defense sequence, combat is sped up by that much already, so a few seconds dedicated to choosing a maneuver when generated is not a big deal. I think this falls under the category of needing something to complain about moreso than a legitimate issue. I can see where the first sessions would have a learning curve, but that's about it.

Regarding other posts, I get a little frustrated with people seeking out whatever they can find to complain about because of a past iteration of RQ that nothing else can hold a candle to. For the record, Chaosium never gave Moorcock a red cent for the use of his characters and ideas in SB, Elric! or anything else. He has already stated that Mongoose have paid him from the getgo and the relationship is a good one. Love whatever system you want, but if certain individuals hate the idea of RQ in Mongoose's hands, their time would be better used reading over the old books rather than posting their bitterness here. Eh, soapbox rant over.
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Postby PrinceYyrkoon » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:17 am

I dont understand the bile, to be honest, no one is fooling anyone.

If it werent for Mongoose, there would be no Eternal Champion stuff, and probably no Runequest either.

On top of this, Mongoose customer service is THEE best of any rpg company Ive ever seen.

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