Spell Magnitude, Magic Point Costs and Spells Memorised

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vistikos
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Spell Magnitude, Magic Point Costs and Spells Memorised

Postby vistikos » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:57 pm

Some thoughts re Spell Magnitude and Magic Point costs:

A Sorcerer with 16 POW and the Sorcery skill Manipulate (Magnitude) of, say, 79% casts a spell with Magnitude 8 with a cost of 1MP.

A Runelord (Rune Magic) with 16 POW, a Shaman (Spirit Magic) with 16 POW or a Dragonlord (Dragon Magic) with 16 POW casts a spell with Magnitude 8 with a cost of 8MP in each case.

The Sorcerer can cast a Magnitude 8 spell 16 times before falling unconscious.

The Runelord, Shaman or Dragonlord, each with 16 POW can cast a Magnitude 8 spell twice before falling unconscious.

Even given the flexibility of Sorcery, despite being the most time-intensive to learn, a question of Game imbalance arises between the disciplines.

Likewise re Spells in memory a Rune Magic, Spirit Magic or Dragon Magic spell takes up its Magnitude in INT.

A Sorcerer with 16 INT can have 16 spells memorised and ready to use.

A Runelord, Shaman or Dragonlord with 16 INT in the above case can have one Magnitude 8 spell memorised and at most another 8 Magnitude of various other spells.

We need a playable fix that doesn’t downgrade the flexibility of Sorcery but allows characters practising the other disciplines more uses of their spells and indeed more spells at their immediate disposal.

Thoughts/Ideas please!
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Postby Mugen » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:03 pm

What about using Magic Point Matrices, Crystals and Bound Power Spirits ?

Yes, your Sorcerer doesn't really need those, but don't forgetr that he has to learn more than 20 skills to be efficient with the 16 spells he knows.

Or you can take a look at OpenQuest, where Sorcerers need and Crystals Matrices like priests and Shamans do but only have to learn one skill ;)
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Postby Lord High Munchkin » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:02 pm

It's the sheer number of skills that's the killer.
The desire for a "definitive, ultimate answer" is, in fact, classified by modern psychiatric medicine as a mental illness.
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Deleriad
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Postby Deleriad » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:36 pm

The balance is the skills.
A sorcerer needs two skills at 80% to be able to cast one spell at magnitude 8. A Priest needs one and a Shaman needs one.

Priests and shamans can cast 16 spells at 80% each knowing just one skill, a sorcerer has to have one skill per spell plus one for Magnitude and one each for any other arts.

In MRQ skill increases are a limited resource therefore the sorcerer struggles to be able to develop enough skills to make their magic truly effective.

Magnitude for magnitude, a sorcerer's magic is also weaker. Though the spell write-ups for sorcery are horribly mixed up.

Basically I don't see a problem. The most common complaint that I've seen from older RQ players is that MRQ sorcery is too weak...
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Postby RosenMcStern » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:40 am

The point is exactly that: the systems should not be balanced. At the cost of having more skills to master before being able to cast magic, a God Learner should be able to access the mythic source of the priest's magic, and plunder it. No surprise that he is more powerful in game.

Remember that a sorcerer is a specialized magic caster, who cannot devote improvement rolls to mundane skills. While an Orlanthi priest is also a warrior.

Also look at the kind of spells they are more likely to cast. Most theist or spirit spells are enhancement spells designed to complement the caster's abilities, and to be cast only once at the start of a combat encounter. Sorcerers have access to a wide array of offensive or direct action spells (Palsy, Fly, Animate, Flamebolt, Form, Venom, Smother, etc.) and can fight with magic only. It makes sense that they can cast more spells.

Finally, compare the effectiveness of the spells:

The Storm Voice casts Protection 8 and the Adept casts Damage Resistance 8. The priestly spell is always subtracted from damage, while the sorcerous spell only has effect if damage is 8 or less. If facing a great troll, the sorcerous spell has many chances of being totally ineffective.

The Wind Lord casts Bladesharp 8, while the Adept casts Boost Damage 8. Both do 8 points of additional damage. However, the theist also has a +40% to hit, which allows him to roll a Precise Attack with his base skills, possibly bypassing armour. Isn't it a big advantage?
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Postby vistikos » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:30 am

[quote="Deleriad"]The balance is the skills.
A sorcerer needs two skills at 80% to be able to cast one spell at magnitude 8. A Priest needs one and a Shaman needs one.

Aaargh!

TWO SKILLS at 80%?

Have I been labouring under the delusion that the % skill in magnitude was the sole arbiter of sorcery spell magnitude?

E.G. A magnitude skill of 65% results in a spell magnitude of 7 despite the skill of the spell itself being only 50%.

Clarifications please!
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Postby kintire » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:45 am

E.G. A magnitude skill of 65% results in a spell magnitude of 7 despite the skill of the spell itself being only 50%.
This is correct. But the fact remains that you need two skills to cast the spell, and you'll want them high, because if the spell doesn't work you'll have no backup.
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Postby vistikos » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:53 am

kintire wrote:
E.G. A magnitude skill of 65% results in a spell magnitude of 7 despite the skill of the spell itself being only 50%.
This is correct. But the fact remains that you need two skills to cast the spell, and you'll want them high, because if the spell doesn't work you'll have no backup.
So, for example a Magus with Manipulation [Magnitude] of 150% can cast a Magnitude 15 spell despite the spell skill being only, say, 75%?
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Deleriad
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Postby Deleriad » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:11 pm

vistikos wrote:So, for example a Magus with Manipulation [Magnitude] of 150% can cast a Magnitude 15 spell despite the spell skill being only, say, 75%?
Yes this is correct. Generally speaking the key thing is to get your Magnitude high first and worry about catching up with spell skills. Clearly however if you wish to reliably cast a spell you want it high as well. The bottom line though is that you need two skills to be able to cast a Mag 8 sorcery spell: Magnitude at 80% and the spell itself.

The basic balance is:
priest/shaman: 1 skill to cast all spells
Sorcerer: 1 skill to cast each spell and up to 5 supporting skills.
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Postby vistikos » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:56 pm

Deleriad wrote:
vistikos wrote:So, for example a Magus with Manipulation [Magnitude] of 150% can cast a Magnitude 15 spell despite the spell skill being only, say, 75%?
Yes this is correct. Generally speaking the key thing is to get your Magnitude high first and worry about catching up with spell skills. Clearly however if you wish to reliably cast a spell you want it high as well. The bottom line though is that you need two skills to be able to cast a Mag 8 sorcery spell: Magnitude at 80% and the spell itself.

The basic balance is:
priest/shaman: 1 skill to cast all spells
Sorcerer: 1 skill to cast each spell and up to 5 supporting skills.
Fair enough!

Re my initial point about the INT required to memorise Rune, Spirit and Dragon Magic spells as opposed to Sorcery Spells: A 1 INT point cost per spell memorised, regardless of magnitude, strikes me as a fairer proposition.

Also, the MP cost of casting could be proportional to the spell Magnitude in all systems including Sorcery, but geared down to avoid exhausting the character after two or three modest castings.

For example: a MP cost of, say, one quarter of the spell Magnitude (rounded up) would allow a character with POW 11 to cast a Magnitude 8 spell (at a 2 MP Cost) five times before exhaustion sets in.

As a balancing feature remember; these spells, where and when available, have an exponential increase in cost and time to learn.

My point is that, in the Gloranthan game at least, the setting is a "High Magic" World.

The prospect of a Runelord, Shaman or Wyrm's Fang Exultant collapsing in battle after three or four modest spells doesn't seem "High Magic"! The Middle Seas Empire deserves decent opposition!

All the above is subject, as always, to playability and game balance.
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Postby Loz » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:11 pm

The Middle Seas Empire deserves decent opposition!
Not in their eyes, they don't... :wink:
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Where are the words to answer you,
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Lord High Munchkin
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Postby Lord High Munchkin » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:20 pm

Yes, kill all "Blow-pants" and "Lizard-kissers"!!!
The desire for a "definitive, ultimate answer" is, in fact, classified by modern psychiatric medicine as a mental illness.
vistikos
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Postby vistikos » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:45 pm

Lord High Munchkin wrote:Yes, kill all "Blow-pants" and "Lizard-kissers"!!!
"Blow Pants"?! The Orlanthi I presume - Hrestol Wept!

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