Alternative damage system, or damage system modifications

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Archer
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Alternative damage system, or damage system modifications

Postby Archer » Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:47 pm

As I have many times complained about the damage system currently used in RQ, or rather how the Hit Points are used, or the number of rolls that carries over from one round to the next slows down the game in my opinion, I shall now provide my own alternatives to handle damage.

Note that these rules has yet not been play tested, but is ideas that I have had some time, but first now drafted into a document. As such they might require further modification and balancing.

The second damage alternative are going to be used for one of Arioch Games own settings that will use modified RuneQuest rules.

Suggestions, opinions etc. are as always welcome.

Just follow the link in my signature and go to the RuneQuest section, and you will find the document. Its called Alternative damage systems.
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Re: Alternative damage system, or damage system modification

Postby AKAramis » Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:34 pm

Archer wrote:
Suggestions, opinions etc. are as always welcome.

Just follow the link in my signature and go to the RuneQuest section, and you will find the document. Its called Alternative damage systems.
couple things:
1) I wound up with white on white text from your formatting on the web page. made it hard to find the file.

The second is almost, but not quite as simple, the same system used in RQ3/etc... I'm interested in seeing it polished up a bit.

not having actually run MRQ yet in any real sense, but having run RQ3/EQ/CoC, i'd been thinking similarly.
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Postby Archer » Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:39 pm

Weird. I have no code that should result in white on white text. What browser are you using?

Yes, I know that the first alternative are closer to RQ3. And it should be polished a bit more. Though since the second alternative is what is most important for one of our settings at the moment, I spent most time on that (a days work on both in total). They are both drafts.
So what is it that you feel are particularly rough and need polishing?
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Postby AKAramis » Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:55 pm

Archer wrote:Weird. I have no code that should result in white on white text. What browser are you using?

Yes, I know that the first alternative are closer to RQ3. And it should be polished a bit more. Though since the second alternative is what is most important for one of our settings at the moment, I spent most time on that (a days work on both in total). They are both drafts.
So what is it that you feel are particularly rough and need polishing?
Firefox on MacOS 10.4

The wording is not as bad on a second read... at first read it wasn't terribly clear.

Might help to use a 3rd level of header, in between the two used, to set the sub-options off.
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Postby Archer » Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:58 pm

AKAramis wrote:
Firefox on MacOS 10.4
Ok. I have not a clue on why it behaves as it does.
AKAramis wrote: The wording is not as bad on a second read... at first read it wasn't terribly clear.

Might help to use a 3rd level of header, in between the two used, to set the sub-options off.
Yes, I will start polishing it very soon to make it easier to follow the layout and sub-options, and update the dokument on the webpage.
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Postby Archer » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:58 am

UPDATE: For those that are intrested, the webpage now contain a version of the document that is slightly more polished and also include some examples.

As usual, feedback and comments are welcome.
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Postby AKAramis » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:52 am

the boxed tables REALLY help.
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Postby Archer » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:16 am

AKAramis wrote:the boxed tables REALLY help.
I'm happy to hear that.
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Postby frogspawner » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:50 pm

Well I have my own combat system, evolved over many years, so don't be surprised or too disappointed that I'm not immediately saying yours is the best thing since sliced bread.

But there are things I like about your system - particularly Alternative 2, which seems to be heading the right way.

Having just one overall total of HPs is good (HPs per location is an administation headache we can well do without - one of Mongoose's worst mistakes, IMO).

Do I read your system right - can you really have your head cut off when you've only taken just over half HPs damage? Seems a bit harsh, and chancy. I have a solution, but no time to explain just now.
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Postby RosenMcStern » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:37 pm

I like these suggestions, too. I do not allow Resilience rolls when damage is too high: you are just unconscious, or dying, or dead, no matter how high your Resistance.

I remember that a Damage Threshold had been proposed during playtesting, but it was not liked by most testers (and by Matt Sprange, I think).

In the end, your suggestions are really sensible, but I think they stray away from the basic concepts of MRQ. Which is not a good thing, whether you like them or not.

I think that all suggestions for alternate rules are best kept on hold until the GM guide is out. It will contain lots of alternate rules that include suggestions that have not been "officialized" so far, so it is easier to find a variant rule that fits one's tastes better than the basic one. It will also solve the problem of conventions and tournaments, as it is easier to state "I will use alternate rule #xy from the GM book", rather than saying "Ok, we are going to use this houserule that works so well in my campaing".
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Postby frogspawner » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:23 pm

OK, I'm back. My solution is to use only SIZ as Hit Points. But, the bad effects (Major Wounds?) don't happen until you get to Zero HP... or less, because you don't die until below -CON.

Underneath it all, I think this is the same as your Alternative 2 system. But it seems different. For example: what sort of craven cur would run away when they're only just under half hit points? But what sort of crazed fool would fight on when they're already on negative? See my point...
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Postby Archer » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:10 pm

frogspawne:r You read it correctly. You can get your head chopped of before you have lost all your Hit Point.

Your combat system are intresting, as I recognize several designs in the mechanics from other games. Though you have combined them all into one system.

RosenMcStern: If you mean that it strays away from the besic concept because you can be seriously injured or die before you have lost all your hit points, then you are correct. I breaks away from that convention.
But I think that the damage system is just one part of the RQ system, and as such, is easily replaced. Much like there has been variations on the d20 system that does not have hit points.

The 2nd alternative in my modification could basically work without Hit Points at all. The Hit Points are only there to allow a character to be "worn down" by damage. You could run with just the Damage Threshold and state that hits that cause damage below it does not count at all. But that would prolong combat in the extreme if you were to use the heroic option (DT = Con).

Remaking the 2nd alternative so that Major wounds only occur when you reach 0 or below hit points would probably be more in line with the conventions of RQ. Though that is very predictable and does not keep the players on their toes.

As I said earlier, the document is still a draft. And subjec to change. I shall consider your opinions, and maybe I will redesign alternative 2. Thats why I asked for opinions :)

So, if you want, hit me with the suggestions on how you would like to see it done? remember that alternative 2 is going to be used for a setting that I am currently working on, that do use modified RuneQuest rules (following the Open Game License of course).

My first impulse on redesigning alternative 2 is this;. You take a Major wound if you loose 1/2 of your Hit Points in one blow. I would in that case base the Damage Threshold on your Total Hit Points instead, and calculate HPs along the formula of (CON+SIZ)/2 (rounded up), instead of HP = CON+SIZ. This would of course mean that the Heroic option as it is written now would have to be removed or redesigned. I have no ideas at the moment of writing this on how to do that.

I see no reason to redesign Altenative 1, as it basically is the same rules as RQ uses now, only scaled down in what they require to administrate as a GM. It works along principles that several BRP based and BRP clone games have used in the past.

As for waiting for the GM guide that is not really an option for me. It may include alternative damage systems, but I am sceptical to that it will. Also, even if it does, there is no certainty that the alternative damage system or systems from that book will be Open Game content, and as such usable by third party publishers.
Last edited by Archer on Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Rasta » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:32 pm

Threshold on your Total Hit Points instead, and calculate HPs along the formula of CON+SIZ2/2 (rounded up), instead of HP = CON+SIZ.
Is that CON+SIZ times 2 devided by 2?
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Postby Archer » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:35 pm

Rasta wrote:
Threshold on your Total Hit Points instead, and calculate HPs along the formula of CON+SIZ2/2 (rounded up), instead of HP = CON+SIZ.
Is that CON+SIZ times 2 devided by 2?
No. That is a typo. :oops:

That should read HP=(CON+SIZ)/2 (rounded up).
Last edited by Archer on Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Archer » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:14 pm

I quickly made some changes, and a new version of the document are available.

The current changes compared to previous version are;
> No changes to Critical Hit rules
> No changes to Impale rules
> Hit Points is now equal to (SIZ+CON)/2, rounded up.
> Damage Threshold is now calculated as being the characters Total HP divided by 2 and rounded up.
> Damage Threshold is now basically equal to the number of Hit Points a character has in the Abdomen Hit Location when using the standard rules from the RuneQuest Main Rulebook.
> No heroic option for Damage Threshold.
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Postby Rasta » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:21 pm

Good stuff Archer!
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Postby Archer » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:25 pm

Than you. But still the edges are rather rough and it still needs some polishing.

The problem with these rules at the moment compared to those of the RuneQuest Main Rulebook is that they are much more lethal. That was what the heroic option for Damage Threshold was for.
It will require some changes to bring that option back, or complete rewrite to how the second alternative works.
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Postby Rasta » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:31 pm

The problem with these rules at the moment compared to those of the RuneQuest Main Rulebook is that they are much more lethal.
I'm not sure if that is a problem. MRQ combat made it slighlty less lethal than RQ3. It can work both for you and against you. It would definately speed up the combat process though.
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Postby Archer » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:42 pm

Rasta wrote:
The problem with these rules at the moment compared to those of the RuneQuest Main Rulebook is that they are much more lethal.
I'm not sure if that is a problem. MRQ combat made it slighlty less lethal than RQ3. It can work both for you and against you. It would definately speed up the combat process though.
That is true.

However, I also intended the rules to be usable for settings that has a "power scale" almost as large as D&D when it comes to taking damage. This was possible when the HPs were SIZ+CON, and the Heroic Damage Threshold were used.
It is not a problem for the settings we are currently working on, but will probably be in the future. But that is, per definition a problem that will have to be faced there and then.
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Postby Rasta » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:45 pm

Definately, I see your point.
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