Immunity To Trollkin "feature" - any comments

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Vadrus
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Re: Precise Attacks

Postby Vadrus » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:57 pm

iamtim wrote:
Vadrus wrote:I would tend to rule that you can't use Flurry and Precise Attack together as the description of Flurry is your sacrificing accuracy for speed, kind of the exact opposite of Precise Attack.
Yeah, note the smiley.

On a more realistic (from an MRQ POV) would a surprise flurry be sweet?

Sneak, sneak, sneak, ATTACK! ATTACK! ATTACK! ATTACK! Die.

:)
Or when they have Legendary abilities,

Sneak, sneak, sneak, Decapitating Swing, Decapitating Swing, Decapitating Swing, Decapitating Swing (depending on how many heads the opponent has :D

Nothing seems to say that Legendary abilities can't be flurried :shock:


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Re: Precise Attacks

Postby atgxtg » Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:02 pm

iamtim wrote:
Archer wrote:is able to strike several times in a row quick with a dagger
So... just sneak up on the guy and surprise him with a flurry attack using precise shot. :-)
LOL! :D

And thank you for the Coca-cola up my nose. :(


BTW, How about sneaking up on the guard and then throwing the dagger at him with a precise attack and Multimissile 6? :shock:

THere's one for the errata. :D
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Postby Vadrus » Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:17 pm

Just noticed one spell we've overlooked in all this, 'Pierce'.

Lasts 5 minutes (60 combat rounds) and ignores one point of armour per point of magnitude. Cast that at magnitude 5 or 6 and then just carve most opponents apart. Flurry now is realy nasty even without precise attacks. Description even says it works against magic armour so forget casting protection either :shock:

Or if someone in Plate with Prot 5 on them, just use precise shot. Pierce gets through the magic, precise gets past the physical armour. Stick on a few points of bladesharp and along with any damage bonus the humble spear (1D8) becomes a truely fearsome weapon.


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Postby Rurik » Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:21 pm

Vadrus wrote:Just noticed one spell we've overlooked in all this, 'Pierce'.

Lasts 5 minutes (60 combat rounds) and ignores one point of armour per point of magnitude. Cast that at magnitude 5 or 6 and then just carve most opponents apart. Flurry now is realy nasty even without precise attacks. Description even says it works against magic armour so forget casting protection either :shock:

Or if someone in Plate with Prot 5 on them, just use precise shot. Pierce gets through the magic, precise gets past the physical armour. Stick on a few points of bladesharp and along with any damage bonus the humble spear (1D8) becomes a truely fearsome weapon.


Vadrus
Actually, pierce is much worse than bladesharp. Bonus to damage is the same as subtracting AP, unless the target has no AP, in which case peirce does nothing. Plus Bladesharp gives +5% per magnitude, and has twice the duration.

And technically according to the rules, precise shots get through magical armor too. Though I am probably houseruling that out.
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Postby Vadrus » Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:35 pm

Rurik wrote:
Vadrus wrote:Just noticed one spell we've overlooked in all this, 'Pierce'.

Lasts 5 minutes (60 combat rounds) and ignores one point of armour per point of magnitude. Cast that at magnitude 5 or 6 and then just carve most opponents apart. Flurry now is realy nasty even without precise attacks. Description even says it works against magic armour so forget casting protection either :shock:

Or if someone in Plate with Prot 5 on them, just use precise shot. Pierce gets through the magic, precise gets past the physical armour. Stick on a few points of bladesharp and along with any damage bonus the humble spear (1D8) becomes a truely fearsome weapon.


Vadrus
Actually, pierce is much worse than bladesharp. Bonus to damage is the same as subtracting AP, unless the target has no AP, in which case peirce does nothing. Plus Bladesharp gives +5% per magnitude, and has twice the duration.

And technically according to the rules, precise shots get through magical armor too. Though I am probably houseruling that out.
Ah missed the bit about precise attacks bypassing magic armour, it's not spelt out explicitly in the combat section and I was assuming it bypassed physical armour only, but it is made clear under the description of the Protection spell.


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Postby Gnarsh » Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:10 pm

Dort Onion wrote: City Guard - str 13, dex 11 (min for both weapons) all other stats NPC average (13 for int, siz, 10.5 for rest)
-Longbow - 1 attack per round for 2d8 damage (other action spent reloading)
-Great sword - 2 attacks per round for 2d8 +1d2 damage.

So the same bloke is doing 9 (longbow) or 21 (great sword) damage per round - and you think the longbow is overpowered??

We'll try again

Hero - all stats 16 vs. Plate Armour
-Longbow - 1.5 attacks per round for 2d8 damage
-Great Sword - 3 attacks per round for 2d8+1d4

Longbow 4.97 damage per round
Great Sword - 16.32 damage per round

What the problem?
You're ignoring a critical issue here. In melee, the opponent has far more options for defense then he does at range. Additionally, while in melee he can fight back. Damage at range when the other guy can't hit me back is automatically better then damage at melee when I'm being attacked as well.

Ranged weapons are less likely to be the "insta-takedown" then they were before, but then all damage effects are less immediate in MRQ then they were in earlier versions of the game. No real difference. The biggest change to missile weapons seem to be that they are less of a random factor. In RQ3, you tended to ignore normal hits from arrows, and get slaughtered by impales and crits. In MRQ, arrows will tend to represent a steady amount of damage taken. Honestly, I think the older system was more accurate. As several people have pointed out, arrows against armor tends to be an all or nothing thing. You get a straight on hit and it penetrates deeply, or you get an arrow that bounces off the armor.

By doubling the base damage, and replacing the old impale/crit system with the max-damage crit system, the difference in potential between a normal hit and a crit is reduced significantly. For example:

RQ3 comp bow:

Regular hit: 1d8+1 damage. 5.5 average. Probably wont get through decent armor.

Impale: 1d8+1 doubled, 11 average. Will likely get 4-6 points through. Good chance of taking down a location.

Critical: 1d8+1 doubled, ignore armor. 11 average. No armor. Barring exceptionally poor rolll, will likely sever a location and incapacitate the target.


MRQ longbow:

Regular hit: 2d8 damage. 9 average. Will likely get 3-5 points of damage through. Not as likely to take down a location though due to the changes in damage results. Still a significant improvement over a normal hit from RQ3.

Critical hit: 2d8 damage, maxed. 16 damage. Will get through. High probability of taking the location "down".


Interestingly enough. When you run the numbers, you'll see that a MRQ normal hit with a longbow is roughly equivalent in damage to an impale with a RQ3 comp bow. A MRQ critical (10%) is roughly equivalent to a RQ3 critical (5%). In both cases, the likely damage that'll hit the location is virtually identical, but more likely to occur in MRQ. The big difference is in how damage is handled.

And that's what makes it very hard to compare straight across. Damage is handled differently. I think that arrow fire will have more of a pincushion effect on opponents in MRQ, but that this wont affect the characters as much as it would in RQ3 (they'd die after a few hits). Hard to say in overall terms how this'll play until I actually get some time to play around with it a lot more.
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Postby jadrax » Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:49 am

Gnarsh wrote:
Dort Onion wrote: Honestly, I think the older system was more accurate. As several people have pointed out, arrows against armor tends to be an all or nothing thing. You get a straight on hit and it penetrates deeply, or you get an arrow that bounces off the armor.
Erm, as far as I can tell this is not the case. Most arrows will hit armour, deform it to some extent but be slowed massivly, leading to some damage but not an amount sufficeient to drop you.
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Postby Dort Onion » Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:42 am

Gnarsh wrote:You're ignoring a critical issue here. In melee, the opponent has far more options for defense then he does at range. Additionally, while in melee he can fight back. Damage at range when the other guy can't hit me back is automatically better then damage at melee when I'm being attacked as well.
I'm not ignoring anything :D - my point was that a great sword can do 2-4 times as much damage per round as a longbow - and that is what balances the range and other advantages a longbow has.

If i'd ignored the issue then I'd be jumping up and down shouting 'Nerf greatswords' :)

Shields can parry ranged weapons and everyone can dodge - "far more options for defense" seems a little overstated.

"Damage at range is better" - I agree wholeheartedly - get yourself a ranged weapon too :)

I think the longbow is a good, powerful weapon, as it should be - so is the great sword. Both weapons have a place.

Until I've playtested the weapons a lot more I'm not going to change the tables - my initial reaction to the weapons tables was that it was horribly unbalanced but looking more deeply (and reading this board) lets me see it isnt.
Time (and players) will tell I guess.

This is also begining to sound like a 'Longbows in MRQ do not accurately reflect the range and types of real wounds caused' thread - I'm only interested in the game balance issues - so thats what I am addressing.

Dort the Balanced/Unbalanced <delete as applicable>
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Postby atgxtg » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:37 pm

jadrax wrote:
Gnarsh wrote:
Dort Onion wrote: Honestly, I think the older system was more accurate. As several people have pointed out, arrows against armor tends to be an all or nothing thing. You get a straight on hit and it penetrates deeply, or you get an arrow that bounces off the armor.
Erm, as far as I can tell this is not the case. Most arrows will hit armour, deform it to some extent but be slowed massivly, leading to some damage but not an amount sufficeient to drop you.
Not quite. Iron mail is actually better against arrows than steel mail because it defeorms. Energy that is spent deforming the armor is energy that is not infliected on the wearer. Generally, if a arrow doesn't break a link, it isn't going to inflict any real damage.

THere is actually very little information to support the idea of arrows piercing plate armor at any range beyond 30 meteres. Most of the great lowbow victories, such as at Crecy or Argincourt generally note the arrows piecing through cuirboilli covered limbs, or horse trappers.
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Postby atgxtg » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:47 pm

Dort Onion wrote:
Gnarsh wrote:You're ignoring a critical issue here. In melee, the opponent has far more options for defense then he does at range. Additionally, while in melee he can fight back. Damage at range when the other guy can't hit me back is automatically better then damage at melee when I'm being attacked as well.
I'm not ignoring anything :D - my point was that a great sword can do 2-4 times as much damage per round as a longbow - and that is what balances the range and other advantages a longbow has.

It isn't a damage/round isssue, it is the damage per hit. A sworsman can attack much faster than an archer. With the new 5 second combat rounds, we are getting a rate of 12/arrows a minute for a average DEX/2CA character, and 18/minute for a high DE/CA3 character. That is much better for a aimed shot that the histoic longbowman.

Dort Onion wrote:If i'd ignored the issue then I'd be jumping up and down shouting 'Nerf greatswords' :)
Shields can parry ranged weapons and everyone can dodge - "far more options for defense" seems a little overstated. [/quote]

Probably becuase such actions are basically ineffective. A longobow arrow is doing 2d8 and probably has a damage bonus due to the STR requiement. THis gives it an average damage better than the shield's AP, or a minimum damage of 3 points to a successful dodger.
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Postby zanshin » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:58 pm

Probably becuase such actions are basically ineffective. A longobow arrow is doing 2d8 and probably has a damage bonus due to the STR requiement. THis gives it an average damage better than the shield's AP, or a minimum damage of 3 points to a successful dodger.
But the only difference with that and a sword swing is that you can use a weapon to block the sword , while if you have a shield you will almost certainly use that intead. If you both have great swords, my guess is you are going to be dodging rather than parrying. This makes
Shields can parry ranged weapons and everyone can dodge - "far more options for defense" seems a little overstated
fair comment in my opinion.

I think in realistic terms 2d8 for a longbow is probably fair. The rof is clearly wrong - also true for crossbows as well.

One way of addressing is have Longbow a separate and advanced skill - bit like martial arts - given the years taken to make a longbowman that might be fair.
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Postby Urox » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:05 pm

I was re-reading Apple Lane and found this interesting:

What is RuneQuest?
In RuneQuest, players create adventurers who explore an ancient world rich in magic. Everyone uses spells and anyone can be a warrior, equipped with cold steel and stout armor. The gods provide fantastic powers to their mortal worshippers and can intercede on their behalf. Each RuneQuest adventurer is unique, belonging to a definite culture and learning the crafts, trades and skills of their parents.

What is Glorantha?
Glorantha is a fantasy world of exotic myth and awesome magic, self-contained and unique in its creation. The existence and use of magical powers are central to the physics of Glorantha. Here the gods live, are worshiped, and act to protect their worshipers and further theor own mysterious goals.

This bit about Whiteye's tactics from the interior really jumped out at me as being essential RuneQuest:

When he does fight, Whiteye opens with an Extinguish spell if possible, then puts Countermagic 2 on himself. He then tries to Demoralize the largest enemy (compare SIZ values). Just before hand-to-hand combat, he casts Bludgeon 2 on his weapon.
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Postby zanshin » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:13 pm

Yes a really great cavern crawl - much better than most others on offer for the 'other system' tm

One of the characters in my campaign became orange as a result of the battle with the great rock lizard mother - he was an Uroxi and subsequently a Storm Khan. Any sniggering at his odd colour was strictly behind his back....

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