Immunity To Trollkin "feature" - any comments

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Archer
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Postby Archer » Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:21 am

Ok, it could perhaps be done. But the fact is that I have never seen any historical evidence that they did it.
They used something flexible, like leather or mail instead to protect that region. Which also allowed them to ride a horse without having their "valuables" scraped and "mangled" (mangled is not the correct word, but I am at a loss finding the english correct word at the moment).

Yes, it is true that women also will feel such a kick. They have nerve clusters there as well. It is just that men usually makes more of a fuss about it.
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Postby Quire » Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:24 am

AKAramis wrote:Sorry, Wrong!
Heh! I'll back this up. Any study of historical armour reveals an immense amount of R&D thrown into protecting the family jewels.

And why not?

- Q
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Postby Archer » Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:22 pm

Quire wrote:
AKAramis wrote:Sorry, Wrong!
Heh! I'll back this up. Any study of historical armour reveals an immense amount of R&D thrown into protecting the family jewels.

And why not?

- Q
This plate armor covers them pretty well;
http://www.swordsandcues.com/product_23 ... t_562.html

But as you can see, there are no equivalent of a modern codpiece specifically for the purpose.

Same here;
http://www.swordsandcues.com/product_23 ... t_562.html

Mainly these are made so that you can ride a horse, in which case you do not want a piece of stiff metal around the "jewels".

Chainmail or leather, that is what primarily protects the groin. Because anything else would be impractical.

In this one you see that the region are especially formed to allow the wearer to sit upon a horse, as it has an open space for the saddle.
http://www.swordsandcues.com/product_23 ... t_562.html

But as it is, you do not wear only the plate, you wear a padded suit beneath it. (to do otherwise would invite injury from the armor itself, and would be throughly uncomfortable).

This roman armor shows a type of protection for the region, but again it is flexible to allow movement and riding;
http://www.swordsofhonor.com/rosuofar.html


This pikesmans armor also show there are no special armor piece to protect the region, again for the same reasons; movement and ability to ride on a horse, if need be.
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/ ... _161156569

Yet another roman armor (legionaries armor);
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/ ... _128389888

It is common to see armor protect the hips, because they are vulnerable. But a stiff metal protection in the style of modern codpieces were simply not used. At most you have a piece of metal that can protect from some angles, but most would be still vulnerable to a swift kick from below to the groin (something that is rather stupid to try in middle of battle as it leaves the kicker ubalanced and vulnerable, but non-the-less).

Armor must be seen in the light of how it was used, under which conditions, and how they were used in actual fighting.
Very few historical warriors would try to kick the opponent in the groin. It was too risky. The greatest danger to the nether regions of the body are blows to the hips, which most plate armor from medieval times address, but also a spear. One of the few weapons able to strike straight enough to actually hit the groin, without much danger to the person using the spear.
In RQ I guess this is what the Precise Attack rule are for...

Very little of studies went into protecting the "family jewels" as such, it was more an effort to study how the armor as a whole protects the body, taking into account how the armor was going to be used, how people fought, and where they were likely to be struck. The "jewels" were not such a place.

Areas which was not possible to cover with plate, because it needed to be flexible to allow movement, were generally protected by underlaying layers of padded cloth, leather and/or chainmail.
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Postby Urox » Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:05 pm

msprange wrote:
simonh wrote:True. Comparing the MRQ Trollkin to MRQ dark Trolls, Aldryami, Mostali etc their approach seems to be to provide the absolute minimum stats for the species, allowing you to use the experience rules to upgrade their skills as you require.
Correct.
Note that Rainbow Mounds is a beginning scenario.

Per both RQ2 and RQ3, trollkin have a base attack of 30%. The main difference between warrior and other trollkin is armor and weapons, not skill.

The trollkin of the RQ3 Rainbow Mounds have:

2H Spear: 34%/1d8+1
Light Mace: 29%/1d8
Sling: 23%/1d8
Buckler: 12%

AP: 1 point skin + leather (3 total)
HP: 10 (3-4 per loc)

These are exceptional trollkin, in that about two-thirds know useful magic. That's 13 runes for 11 Trollkin (many know more than 1 spell).

From experience, these trollkin are quite a formidable foe to beginning adventurers under RQ3.
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Postby atgxtg » Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:17 pm

I suspect one of the problems is also the difference in beggining skill scores in MRQ as compared to RQ.

In RQ2, the Trollkin scores of around 25% +/10% or so reflects a bit of experience. Not a lot, but a definate improvement over the starting chance. Basically the trolling have skills on par with or slightly better than starting characters.

In RQ2/3 35% made for a challenging foe for a starting character. In MRQ, most PCs will have twice that ability.

SInce MRQ raises the starting charces, we probably need to boost up the trollkin skill scores to maintain parity.

Now if we double the trollkin skill %, or write them up like starting adventurers, they get a lot tougher, and better reflect what they are supposed to be like.
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Postby Urox » Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:25 pm

atgxtg wrote:SInce MRQ raises the starting charces, we probably need to boost up the trollkin skill scores to maintain parity.

Now if we double the trollkin skill %, or write them up like starting adventurers, they get a lot tougher, and better reflect what they are supposed to be like.
Has anyone (preferably a Mongoose staffer) written a RQ2/3 -> MQ Conversion Guide?

Note that RQ3 did come with one.
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Postby atgxtg » Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:32 pm

Urox wrote:
atgxtg wrote:SInce MRQ raises the starting charces, we probably need to boost up the trollkin skill scores to maintain parity.

Now if we double the trollkin skill %, or write them up like starting adventurers, they get a lot tougher, and better reflect what they are supposed to be like.
Has anyone (preferably a Mongoose staffer) written a RQ2/3 -> MQ Conversion Guide?

Note that RQ3 did come with one.
No, but I don't suppose a good one can be done until the COmapinion book comes out. We'd need the stuff for Divine Magic. Maybe there will be one in the Companion? It would seem an ideal place for it.

I think I'll start on an "unoffical" one. I've been doing a lotof RQ3/MRQ comparisons, so I'm primed.
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Postby AKAramis » Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:20 am

Doing the math... best starting skill scores for weapons ON HUMANS...

Weapons
STR + DEX + Background + Profession +30
18+18+15+10+30=91
(nobles get 15% in BG; Mercs in Prof; they are mutually exclusive; 10% is remaining optins limit.)

Language (Native)
INT+50+30=18+80=98
Language (Other)
INT+30+10=18+40=58

most basics can be gotten to 36+20+30=86
Advanced 10 less...
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Postby atgxtg » Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:30 am

AKAramis wrote:Doing the math... best starting skill scores for weapons ON HUMANS...

Weapons
STR + DEX + Background + Profession +30
18+18+15+10+30=91
(nobles get 15% in BG; Mercs in Prof; they are mutually exclusive; 10% is remaining optins limit.)

Language (Native)
INT+50+30=18+80=98
Language (Other)
INT+30+10=18+40=58

most basics can be gotten to 36+20+30=86
Advanced 10 less...
Yeah, and with average begining characters being able to hit the 60-70% mark with no trouble, those 35% trollkin are no longer as good as they once were. Even Whiteye isn't as good as a starting PC.

So it looks like we need to boost up the skill scores to maintainin parity. THe qestion is how much?

It looks like the lowest a starting PC wirth average stats could have would be 10.5 (STR)+10.5 (DEX)+10 (background) =31% Since the lowest a character could star with in RQ was 5%, maybe a +25% modfier would be enough?
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Postby AKAramis » Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:31 am

Well, given that 35% isn't bad odds, given a possible shield for an extra parry each... they just need to do some "creative fighting."

Well, bump them by adding a relevant profession... 5-15%

On both attack and shield...

(Sorry... tis late)
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Postby simonh » Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:02 pm

atgxtg wrote:Yeah, and with average begining characters being able to hit the 60-70% mark with no trouble, those 35% trollkin are no longer as good as they once were. Even Whiteye isn't as good as a starting PC.
Many starting RQ3 characters had similar skill levels. 25% for cultural weapon + 15% attack modifier with decent stats rolls, + 40% from career (4% * 10 years experience) = 80% for a lucky character. Whiteyes Trollkin were dangerous because starting characters could afford little armour (about 5pt max) and RQ3 impales were twice as common as MRQ crits. With a little damage enhancing magic, a luck hit with a spear could realy make you're eyes water.

Simon Hibbs
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Postby Enpeze » Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:16 pm

atgxtg wrote:
AKAramis wrote:Doing the math... best starting skill scores for weapons ON HUMANS...

Weapons
STR + DEX + Background + Profession +30
18+18+15+10+30=91
(nobles get 15% in BG; Mercs in Prof; they are mutually exclusive; 10% is remaining optins limit.)

Language (Native)
INT+50+30=18+80=98
Language (Other)
INT+30+10=18+40=58

most basics can be gotten to 36+20+30=86
Advanced 10 less...
Yeah, and with average begining characters being able to hit the 60-70% mark with no trouble, those 35% trollkin are no longer as good as they once were. Even Whiteye isn't as good as a starting PC.

So it looks like we need to boost up the skill scores to maintainin parity. THe qestion is how much?

I would not "boost the skill" of the trollkin. 35% is ok for a low level fighter. Instead I would introduce a skill cap for beginner characters.

-maybe 60% or so (preferred solution for me)

-or I would reduce the 30% one can allocate to a single basic skill to 10%.
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Postby Rurik » Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:29 pm

Enpeze wrote:
atgxtg wrote:
AKAramis wrote:Doing the math... best starting skill scores for weapons ON HUMANS...

Weapons
STR + DEX + Background + Profession +30
18+18+15+10+30=91
(nobles get 15% in BG; Mercs in Prof; they are mutually exclusive; 10% is remaining optins limit.)

Language (Native)
INT+50+30=18+80=98
Language (Other)
INT+30+10=18+40=58

most basics can be gotten to 36+20+30=86
Advanced 10 less...
Yeah, and with average begining characters being able to hit the 60-70% mark with no trouble, those 35% trollkin are no longer as good as they once were. Even Whiteye isn't as good as a starting PC.

So it looks like we need to boost up the skill scores to maintainin parity. THe qestion is how much?

I would not "boost the skill" of the trollkin. 35% is ok for a low level fighter. Instead I would introduce a skill cap for beginner characters.

-maybe 60% or so (preferred solution for me)

-or I would reduce the 30% one can allocate to a single basic skill to 10%.
Remember previous RQ's never penalized weapon skills just for wearing armor (unless over encumbered). MRQ subtracts for any and all armor worn, up to -42 for full plate. So a starting skill of 80 will result in a lower chance to hit if armored (and if not armored the trollkin are that much more dangerous).
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Postby atgxtg » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:04 pm

simonh wrote:
atgxtg wrote:Yeah, and with average begining characters being able to hit the 60-70% mark with no trouble, those 35% trollkin are no longer as good as they once were. Even Whiteye isn't as good as a starting PC.
Many starting RQ3 characters had similar skill levels. 25% for cultural weapon + 15% attack modifier with decent stats rolls, + 40% from career (4% * 10 years experience) = 80% for a lucky character. Whiteyes Trollkin were dangerous because starting characters could afford little armour (about 5pt max) and RQ3 impales were twice as common as MRQ crits. With a little damage enhancing magic, a luck hit with a spear could realy make you're eyes water.

Simon Hibbs
Not quite. TO get a +15 Attack Bounus in RQ required INT 16, DEX 16, STR 16 or a mix of the three equivanent to it (2 to 1 for STR). THen to get the +40% required rolling one of the combat oriented professions and being in it for ten years. The average character was probably closer to 44% (25% base +5% attack modifier +14% experience)

In MRQ joe average farmer can start off with 60%.

THat is why we need to update the Trollkin skill score to MRQ. Some of the Trollkin weapon scores are actually below MRQ starting percentage.

They should at least have weapons up to STR+DEX+10% or so for background and another +10% or so for profession. And probably should add a few more pencentage points out of free points to represent "banditry" experience.
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Postby Archer » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:07 pm

As usual in RPGs, the effects of wearing armor are extremly exaggerated. You do not have that much problem moving in a suit of full plate armor. While you need a little practise to get used to it, it does not happer you that much. The largest issue is that it gets hot very quickly, and you tend to overheat due to trapped body heat, which is not a good thing.

I have seen re-enactment peole doing wheel-carts (I think that is the correct word, but not sure) in full plate. I have even seen them play football wearing plate armor. Though it was at a slower pace than you would expect (the football game), due to a hot summer day and the risk of overheating.

Often we hear about the impossibility of sleeping while wearing a suit of plate mail. This is also a myth, as one person at that event can testify. I was a bit tired so laid down to rest, he slept for a full three hours without problems, until a friend of mine awoke him to ask some questions.

Remember a suit of plate armor are specificially made to be moved in, while protecting you. It can not do that if you can not move properly in it. That is why it is so important to have a suit of armor that fits correctly.

Talking to some of the people at that and other events, I have learned that it is actually more cumbersome to wear chainmail than plate armor. Plate armor bears its own weight without problem, while chainmail does not, and as such presses down on you more.

While it would be bothersome, introducing an Armor skill in RQ, that offsets penalty for wearing armor, representing your character getting used to it, would be a solution.
Another would be to just penalize skill use where the added weight obviously is a huge problem, such as swimming.
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Postby Rurik » Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:16 pm

Archer wrote:As usual in RPGs, the effects of wearing armor are extremly exaggerated. You do not have that much problem moving in a suit of full plate armor. While you need a little practise to get used to it, it does not happer you that much. The largest issue is that it gets hot very quickly, and you tend to overheat due to trapped body heat, which is not a good thing.
I Agree that the penalty is severe - and basing it on AP not the Ideal method (is a full suit if Iron Plate going to be -56%?). I know SCA'ers and have worn 3/4 plate and it was amazingly easy to move in and comfortable (and it was fitted to someone else). The original designers of RQ were SCA'ers and chose not to impose armor penalties.

That being said I think the character creation rules take this into account. A starting skill of 80 for a Mercenary seems high by older RQ standards, but a fully chain eqipped ercenary is going to be rolling with a 45 Skill. Even 2AP per location is going to reduce his effective skill to 66.

I think the two, armor penalties and starting skills levels are linked, and any modification to one should take the other into account.
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Postby Archer » Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:23 pm

Too bad. It adds uneccesary calculations. It would have been better to make beginning characters have less % in their skills, and not use armor penalties to balance it up with. That seems like an added complication, not a simplification of the rules.
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Postby Rurik » Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:25 pm

Archer wrote:Too bad. It adds uneccesary calculations. It would have been better to make beginning characters have less % in their skills, and not use armor penalties to balance it up with. That seems like an added complication, not a simplification of the rules.
At least we have a character sheet that makes it easy to track this now. :wink:
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Postby atgxtg » Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:14 pm

Rurik wrote:
Archer wrote:Too bad. It adds uneccesary calculations. It would have been better to make beginning characters have less % in their skills, and not use armor penalties to balance it up with. That seems like an added complication, not a simplification of the rules.
At least we have a character sheet that makes it easy to track this now. :wink:
Couldn't we just ditch the penalty to skills and instead apply it to fatigue rolls?

More realsitic, easier to handle, less math, people in armor get tired more quickly. Good idea?
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Postby Archer » Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:33 pm

atgxtg wrote:
Rurik wrote:
Archer wrote:Too bad. It adds uneccesary calculations. It would have been better to make beginning characters have less % in their skills, and not use armor penalties to balance it up with. That seems like an added complication, not a simplification of the rules.
At least we have a character sheet that makes it easy to track this now. :wink:
Couldn't we just ditch the penalty to skills and instead apply it to fatigue rolls?

More realsitic, easier to handle, less math, people in armor get tired more quickly. Good idea?
Very good idea. But I would rather see a rule that is not based on APs. Though that is a quick way to handle it. Chainmail wearers get tired because of weight distribution, plate armor wearers get tired due to overheating.

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