MRQ and Minis

Discover the Legend RPG, Mongoose's fantasy game.
srpollard15
Shrew
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:59 pm

MRQ and Minis

Postby srpollard15 » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:23 pm

I know Mongoose is making excellent new minis for the game, but will the game mechanics of the new RQ facilitate miniature use in some way similar to D&D?

I know there are some camps who don't use minis, but my group does and as a GM, I like a system better if the mechanics easily translate to a combat grid.

Anyway, thanks for any info on this.

Scot
Wulf Corbett
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4314
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:19 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: MRQ and Minis

Postby Wulf Corbett » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:36 pm

srpollard15 wrote:I know there are some camps who don't use minis, but my group does and as a GM, I like a system better if the mechanics easily translate to a combat grid.
From playtesting I can't remember anything that translates to the D&D style battle map system, other than the fact that all creatures/PCs have a movement rate.

And thank f**k for that I say...

Wulf
srpollard15
Shrew
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:59 pm

Postby srpollard15 » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:48 pm

I certainly wasn't advocating a direct copy of D&D movement, but something that gives us the option to track movement would be nice.

Just curious, why the vitriol against D&D's grid-based move system? If you don't like minis, I can understand it, but otherwise, it works very well for tracking exactly where everyone is and helps aid the flow of battle.

In more abstract games like Heroquest I could see not using it, but in a game like RQ where some attempt is made to simulate reality, it's important to me to have this option.

And as I said, my group likes using minis.

Thanks for the feedback!

Scot
SteveMND
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 296
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 11:23 am
Location: Salisbury, MD

Postby SteveMND » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:31 pm

In more abstract games like Heroquest I could see not using it, but in a game like RQ where some attempt is made to simulate reality, it's important to me to have this option.
Ah, my friend, such was the world back when that RQ -- and indeed D&D and most all other RPGs -- never used a grid-based system. Heck, most didn't even use miniatures as part of the game system. Which is especially interesting given that D&D, the granddaddy of them all, evolved out of a miniatures-based wargame. :)

Don't get too hung up on minis in your game. If you want to use them, that's fine, but I've found that unless the game is explicitly designed around their use in a tactical sense (such as d20 is), then more often then not, they impede the ability to simulate the combat accurately by constraining it too much.
Lakritsploppen
Stoat
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:50 pm
Location: Sweden, the cold north

Postby Lakritsploppen » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:19 pm

Minis, I think they actually help. No more 30 meter teleports (im here, now im there), less conflicts between gm & players.

so i hope they have some suggestions how to use minis in the game..
Jeff Cope
Mongoose
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Postby Jeff Cope » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:47 pm

I definitely fall on the pro-minis side of things. Won't RPG without 'em.

I would still love to see a RQ minis skirmish game to go along with the RQ (but more integrated than, say SST RPG and SST Minis).

Jeff
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:57 pm

SteveMND wrote:
In more abstract games like Heroquest I could see not using it, but in a game like RQ where some attempt is made to simulate reality, it's important to me to have this option.
Ah, my friend, such was the world back when that RQ -- and indeed D&D and most all other RPGs -- never used a grid-based system. Heck, most didn't even use miniatures as part of the game system. Which is especially interesting given that D&D, the granddaddy of them all, evolved out of a miniatures-based wargame. :)

Don't get too hung up on minis in your game. If you want to use them, that's fine, but I've found that unless the game is explicitly designed around their use in a tactical sense (such as d20 is), then more often then not, they impede the ability to simulate the combat accurately by constraining it too much.
Hmmmm an interesting (but somewhat inaccurate) point of view.

Miniatures have many uses, from 'who was standing where' to 'did that Duck have LOS with the sling' (I know a lot of GM's don't like this - its a power thing I presume).

How is having a representation of something 'constraining' if anything its the opposite, it frees you up to control the situation more effectively.

It reduces player cheating ('no I wasn't standing there, honest') and the GM's 'fluffing' things (for whatever reason).

If you want more realistic combat, then do LARP (where the miniatures are life size Lol) as a tabletop simulation can never be realistic OR accurate (In reality its just as easy to kill a man with a Dagger as it is a Sword - yet swords deal out more damage).

The first RQ product was the wargame White Bear & Red Moon, A wargame with Playing Pieces. A couple of the smaller Miniature manufacturers even produced 'Runequesty' style miniatures, sometime BEFORE the RPG was ever produced (the long gone Asgard Miniatures being the main one).

Your observation that RPG's aren't designed to use miniatures is a spurious one at best - thats a MODERN concept that comes from most Storytelling games (such as those published by White Wolf) and not from RPG's which tend to be more Adventure Based.

The first Editions of Runequest and Tunnels and Trolls have sections in them about "Using Miniatures" in your Games (and Tunnels and Trolls had its own 'Quasi' Miniatures Game called "Monsters, Monsters").

In fact the Strike Rank (and the AP systes from 3rd Ed RQ) are Wargaming conventions, and have been for many years.

Although I agree about the Grid (even though AGAIN there are RPG's that use Grids, Star Frontiers and Dragon Quest being prime examples) they aren't common.

But the use of miniatures IS a big BIG part of Fantasy RPG's (and Science Fiction ones to be honest).

With regards to playing games purely with your miniatures, the RQ combat system as it stands will be more than adequate. You will need some form of points based system to make your games fair however.
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Re: MRQ and Minis

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:58 pm

srpollard15 wrote:I know Mongoose is making excellent new minis for the game, but will the game mechanics of the new RQ facilitate miniature use in some way similar to D&D?

I know there are some camps who don't use minis, but my group does and as a GM, I like a system better if the mechanics easily translate to a combat grid.

Anyway, thanks for any info on this.

Scot
Scot you dont need a combat Grid buddy, merely a Tape Measure!
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image
SteveMND
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 296
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 11:23 am
Location: Salisbury, MD

Postby SteveMND » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:37 pm

Miniatures have many uses, from 'who was standing where' to 'did that Duck have LOS with the sling' (I know a lot of GM's don't like this - its a power thing I presume). (...) It reduces player cheating ('no I wasn't standing there, honest') and the GM's 'fluffing' things (for whatever reason).
I've found that if the players and judges are trustworthy, there's no reason for cheating. Of course, this relies on the type of people you're dealing with, of course.
How is having a representation of something 'constraining' if anything its the opposite, it frees you up to control the situation more effectively.
Being only able to move in 5-foot (or 1 meter, or whatever) 'chunks' I feel is more constraining, as one example. Sure, you could just 'wing it' as a judge and say, 'sure, you can inch a little closer than the map says,' but at that point, I think it's easier to just free-form it in most situations. This is, of course, just a personal opinion.
The first RQ product was the wargame White Bear & Red Moon, A wargame with Playing Pieces. A couple of the smaller Miniature manufacturers even produced 'Runequesty' style miniatures, sometime BEFORE the RPG was ever produced (the long gone Asgard Miniatures being the main one).
That's fine, but I wasn't talking about wargames. Wargames, by definition, pretty much have to use minis.
Your observation that RPG's aren't designed to use miniatures is a spurious one at best - thats a MODERN concept that comes from most Storytelling games (such as those published by White Wolf) and not from RPG's which tend to be more Adventure Based.
Hardly modern; I was basing my statements about early RPGs based on the ones I used to play 20-25 years ago when I was in high-school/college. Man, now I feel old.
The first Editions of Runequest and Tunnels and Trolls have sections in them about "Using Miniatures" in your Games (and Tunnels and Trolls had its own 'Quasi' Miniatures Game called "Monsters, Monsters").
That may be, but by the time RQII came out, miniatures were gone from the rulebook (at leasty according to my well-worn 26-year-old copy of said book). Man, now I feel old again.

I seem to recall many of the games back then didn't rely on minis and grids to be played. Note here, that I'm not saying that none of them mentioned them, or thst none had options for them to be used, just that they were not required for play. Compare that to d20 3rd edition, which almost literally requires them to be used, so integral are they to the actual rules mechanics.
Urox
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 263
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:20 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Postby Urox » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:49 pm

Lieutenant Rasczak wrote:The first Editions of Runequest...have sections in them about "Using Miniatures" in your Games
My RQ1 rulebook (not sure if it's first ed. or not, but is the brown cover staple-fold version by Steve Perrin & friends) has the following to say:

Page 9 OTHER PLAYING AIDS

TIN/LEAD OR PLASTIC FIGURINES (these are optional, but give the play some focus and help settle arguments over who was where. We recommend 25mm military miniatures as the best all around size.)
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:50 pm

SteveMND wrote:
That may be, but by the time RQII came out, miniatures were gone from the rulebook (at leasty according to my well-worn 26-year-old copy of said book).
They are still in there buddy, page 4 under "Other Playing Aids" the exact quote is "As assistance is this Drama, you'll find the following helpful" -

"TIN/LEAD OR PLASTIC FIGURINES (These are optional, but give the play some focus and help settle arguments over who was where. We recommend 25mm miniatures as the best all around size)".

So you see, they admit miniatures enhance the gaming experience.

As for the cheating reference, players generally don't mean to cheat. Its usually exuberance and enthusiasm to do well that gets in the way of common sense and good book-keeping.

I've been playing RPG's and such since I was 16 (and now I feel old) giving me just over 28 years of collecting and playing. Even RPG's that don't contain reference to the use of miniatures, have elements in their combat systems that are derived and would most definitely benefit from the use of miniatures to govern combat.
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image
RMS
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:49 am

Postby RMS » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:51 pm

SteveMND wrote:I seem to recall many of the games back then didn't rely on minis and grids to be played. Note here, that I'm not saying that none of them mentioned them, or thst none had options for them to be used, just that they were not required for play. Compare that to d20 3rd edition, which almost literally requires them to be used, so integral are they to the actual rules mechanics.
I'm with you. The whole idea of minis, combat maps, etc. first showed up, as I recall, with GURPS. Up until then, we used minis, but only to give a general visual representation of what was going on, so we were on the same page. I've never liked rules that detail movement in hexes, deal with facings, etc. If I want that, I'll play an actual board game. For me, those rules are generally clunky and detract from the pace of play. I do like some visual representation so that the players understand what's going on, and will gladly use some form of mini for that, but I'm most certainly not dragging out grid battle maps, tape measurements, etc.

Also, most of our 'minis' were spare dice, coins, a stale chip, lego men, etc. since they were too expensive for my group to buy at the time! :)
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:54 pm

Urox wrote:
Lieutenant Rasczak wrote:The first Editions of Runequest...have sections in them about "Using Miniatures" in your Games
My RQ1 rulebook (not sure if it's first ed. or not, but is the brown cover staple-fold version by Steve Perrin & friends) has the following to say:

Page 9 OTHER PLAYING AIDS

TIN/LEAD OR PLASTIC FIGURINES (these are optional, but give the play some focus and help settle arguments over who was where. We recommend 25mm military miniatures as the best all around size.)
Thats the Second print of the 1st Edition, which was originally in the 1st Ed box along with basic roleplaying, the Yellow Cover Apple Lane, some REALLY dreadful Dice and some of those Card Silhouette Miniature thingies that Chaosium liked so much.
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:56 pm

RMS wrote:
SteveMND wrote:I seem to recall many of the games back then didn't rely on minis and grids to be played. Note here, that I'm not saying that none of them mentioned them, or thst none had options for them to be used, just that they were not required for play. Compare that to d20 3rd edition, which almost literally requires them to be used, so integral are they to the actual rules mechanics.
I'm with you. The whole idea of minis, combat maps, etc. first showed up, as I recall, with GURPS. Up until then, we used minis, but only to give a general visual representation of what was going on, so we were on the same page. I've never liked rules that detail movement in hexes, deal with facings, etc. If I want that, I'll play an actual board game. For me, those rules are generally clunky and detract from the pace of play. I do like some visual representation so that the players understand what's going on, and will gladly use some form of mini for that, but I'm most certainly not dragging out grid battle maps, tape measurements, etc.

Also, most of our 'minis' were spare dice, coins, a stale chip, lego men, etc. since they were too expensive for my group to buy at the time! :)
The VERY first Edition of D&D (the brown treasure chest box), and the First Edition of Basic D&D have references/illustrations and examples of using Miniatures during play to represent combat and Trap resolution.

Gurps Re-Introduced the use of Miniatures and Maps.
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image
SteveMND
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 296
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 11:23 am
Location: Salisbury, MD

Postby SteveMND » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:25 pm

They are still in there buddy, page 4 under "Other Playing Aids" the exact quote is "As assistance is this Drama, you'll find the following helpful" -
Hmm, I stand corrected. However, while I will concede to you the literal fact that they do indeed mention it in the rulebook, I do not, under any stretch of the imagination, take two single sentences out of a 120-page rulebook to be evidence that said games were "designed" for minis or that minis were a "big part"... :)

Of course, in your 'exact quote,' you also missed the two lines immediately preceeding those: "RuneQuest does not need a playing board. The player's imagination provide the stage on which the characters act."

Point is, it all comes down to personal preferences. Assuming the game mechanics don't require their use for rules accuracy (as in d20), if you feel your game is enhanced by the use of minis, use them. If not, don't. But don't assume that an RPG can't be played without them, is all.
Last edited by SteveMND on Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:32 pm

SteveMND wrote:
They are still in there buddy, page 4 under "Other Playing Aids" the exact quote is "As assistance is this Drama, you'll find the following helpful" -
Hmm, I stand corrected. However, while I will concede to you the literal fact that they do indeed mention it in the rulebook, I do not, under any stretch of the imagination, take two single sentences out of a 120-page rulebook to be a evidence that said games were "designed" for minis or that minis were a "big part"... :)
I never said the were 'designed' for Minis, all I was trying to point out was that Wargames and RPG's are sort of inter-dependant.

Without Fantasy Wargaming, RPG's most likely wouldn't have come into existance.

The whole point is moot anyway, Mongoose obviousley see the benifit of producing Miniatures for RPG's - whether purely from a marketing point of view or otherwise.
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image
Urox
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 263
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:20 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Postby Urox » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:38 pm

Lieutenant Rasczak wrote:Thats the Second print of the 1st Edition, which was originally in the 1st Ed box along with basic roleplaying, the Yellow Cover Apple Lane, some REALLY dreadful Dice and some of those Card Silhouette Miniature thingies that Chaosium liked so much.
Then, I am going to guess that the First print had a color cover/fold-staple binding/William Church Wyvern logo?
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:49 pm

Urox wrote:
Lieutenant Rasczak wrote:Thats the Second print of the 1st Edition, which was originally in the 1st Ed box along with basic roleplaying, the Yellow Cover Apple Lane, some REALLY dreadful Dice and some of those Card Silhouette Miniature thingies that Chaosium liked so much.
Then, I am going to guess that the First print had a color cover/fold-staple binding/William Church Wyvern logo?
I'm pretty sure that was the second print run of the Boxed set.

Image
Was it this one, if it was indeed the Second Print Run.

Im pretty sure the 1st Imprinting of the 1st Edition book had a B&W Cover.
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image
Wulf Corbett
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4314
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:19 pm
Location: Scotland

Postby Wulf Corbett » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:55 pm

Lieutenant Rasczak wrote:The 1st Imprinting of the 1st Edition book had a B&W Cover.
I played my first few RQ games from that B&W covered verson... not mine, sadly.

As to minis. Minis on scale maps only serve to bind and restrict players and GM alike into a rigid acceptance of the surroundings. Maps take away the incentive to imagine. With a map, you ask "Is there a chandelier I could swing from?", without a map you state "I swing from the chandelier!"

Wulf
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:08 pm

Wulf Corbett wrote:
Lieutenant Rasczak wrote:The 1st Imprinting of the 1st Edition book had a B&W Cover.
I played my first few RQ games from that B&W covered verson... not mine, sadly.

As to minis. Minis on scale maps only serve to bind and restrict players and GM alike into a rigid acceptance of the surroundings. Maps take away the incentive to imagine. With a map, you ask "Is there a chandelier I could swing from?", without a map you state "I swing from the chandelier!"

Wulf
But then the GM could answer with "what chandelier" Lol!

We are going to have to agree to disagree, I prefer structure (even if its just a VERY detailed description of the environment) when Gamesmastering.

I use maps, models of Tavern interiors and cavers. 2d Plans, and even life size props (whatever can help me when GM'ing) and the dreaded Miniatures Lol.

I prefer measurment rather than grids, but I know people who only use grids/overlays.
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests