Elves and Dwarves?

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homerjsinnott
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Postby homerjsinnott » Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:29 pm

Darran wrote:This is how I see the Aldryami. :wink:

Yasmin Bannerman as "Jabe" in Dr Who.
I agree, I like that look too, maybe a bit more plantie.I Would also like to see Elves showing more physical affinity with the trees they are sown from (I like that phrase, 'sown from') silver birch, oak, spruce, et al. But that would need some good colour illos.



Since I have started playing RQ the Official view on Dwarfs and Elves has slowly move from slightly generic to very alien, making them effectively unplayable (except when everybody plays one or you are some total outcast stripped of every link to your kin).

Well listen up Chaosium/Mongeeses, I DONT LIKE IT! ( and nor do my brothers(and sisters) in PE-SPAM!

I love the idea that Elves/Dwarfs have an alien mind set, but does it have to be That alien?

Why are Trolls the only ones that can be played in a party?
Aren't all three tied to the man rune, making half their natures humanish?

So what we want is more page space and very strange playable Non-human PCs








Or we send the Runners round.
And they are not called whipsticks for nothing.
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It's the system bigot bit I don't understand, and I like chimps.

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Wulf Corbett
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:47 pm

Darran wrote:This is how I see the Aldryami. :wink:

Yasmin Bannerman as "Jabe" in Dr Who.
Looks fine in Dr. Who. It should stay there.

Wulf
homerjsinnott
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Postby homerjsinnott » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:01 am

Wulf Corbett wrote:
Generaly speaking, the older the art, the better...

Wulf

Ah nostalgia! tell me, what was it like in the good old days?
Member of the FESPA. Formally PESPAM (spliters!).

"I would rather be a Troll than a chimp brained pompous system bigot like you."
It's the system bigot bit I don't understand, and I like chimps.

I was a God Learner experiment.
Archer
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Postby Archer » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:15 am

SteveMND wrote:
What if you hate those systems, and great parts of the world, but like much about Glorantha and the RQ system, except for the elves and dwarves that should have been more generic?
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm not seeing the problem. As you yourself said, as GMs we can do what we want with our personal campaigns, and with regards to the artwork, the visual depiction of a species seems an awfully minor thing to be concerned over. :)
I rely heavily on the images of creatures etc. to describe the world to my players. And in most cases, when I want to run a game for my players, I have to "sell" the idea to them. What most often decides if it goes or not are the visual style of the game (if it looks cool etc.), and mainly how the races they usually like to play looks.
Since they tend to want to play elves and dwarves, it is a potential problem for me, if I want to run a Glorantha campaign, and shall sell the idea to them.
SteveMND wrote: I'm not even seeing where there would be any real 'work' involved with making an elf vegetable-based or meat-based, or whether they have bark-like skin or human-like skin. I suppose it might be if the way they handled elves are soooo vastly different they require a completely seperate ruleset, but for now, I'm not seeing that as likely to be the case.
Well, it is not that which is soo much of a problem anymore. It is more a matter if they look like plants, or if they look like normal elves.
Archer
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Postby Archer » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:19 am

homerjsinnott wrote:
Wulf Corbett wrote:
Generaly speaking, the older the art, the better...

Wulf

Ah nostalgia! tell me, what was it like in the good old days?
It was better, much better. And the much more in the past it is, the more better it was....

(that was a joke, for those of you who did not get that).

I for one, hope the elves will at least look like legolas and company.
I guess we will have to see what Mongoose do with it.

Hopefully there will be a preview soon that shows us how elves look.
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Postby Darran » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:30 am

Archer wrote:I for one, hope the elves will at least look like legolas and company.

Oh Please!
That would be dreadful.
There is nothing worst than those elves with their long blonde hair.

It is so cliche. It is so vanilla and boring.

But we will have to agree to disagree on that one.
Archer wrote:I guess we will have to see what Mongoose do with it.
That'll be the interesting bit.

I guess they may have Gloranthan elves in the Gloranthan books and your vanilla elves in the core book or core creatures book?
Cheers,
Darran
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Con-Quest Midlands 2013. Derby Assembly Rooms, Derby, UK.
Saturday May the 4th 'be with you' 2013.
http://www.con-quest.co.uk
seanwalsh
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Postby seanwalsh » Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:43 am

Darran wrote:Oh Please!
That would be dreadful.
There is nothing worst than those elves with their long blonde hair.

It is so cliche. It is so vanilla and boring.
I quite like the vanilla ones. They are much tastier that way! ;)
SteveMND
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Postby SteveMND » Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:49 am

Since they tend to want to play elves and dwarves, it is a potential problem for me, if I want to run a Glorantha campaign, and shall sell the idea to them.
Huh. I suppose I'll have to chalk this one up to a difference in play style; if my players expected the campaign's elves to look like Tolkien elves, I'd say, sure, they look like Tolkien elves. Same thing if they wanted tree-like elves or japanese manga elves. The visual indicators were never an overriding issue with my gaming group, so long as the nuts-and-bolts were the same. :)

Wow, you know, I was thinking back over my years of gaming (I feel old now), and I realized that the visual imagery provided by the game's artists themselves never played any real noticeable part in my gaming experiences; perhaps that makes me the exception.

I suppose maybe that might have had to do with the fact that as a graphic artist, I'd always draw character portraits and such the way I envisioned them to begin with, so while I usually had a visual reference -- and in fact, in many cases could not get 'into' a character until I had comes up with a sketch for him/her -- it was always one based on my own impression of the character...
andakitty
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Postby andakitty » Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:26 am

I would like to see elvsies that look something like the concept art for Heroes of Might and Magic 5 if at all. Never really liked the 'elf as walking plant' thingie, it reminds me of the old movie from the 50's, James Arness as the walking carrot. Was that 'It Came From Outer Space'? Then there have been similar critters in recent rpgs like Epic and Children of the Sun. Just creeps me out for some reason. What's wrong with people-with- pointy-ears-who-happen-to-be-tree-hugger type elvsies anyway? Athough now I think about it I haven't used elvsies in a game in a looong time...so I can ignore some walking plant people (shudder). Maybe. :roll:
GbajiTheDeceiver
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Postby GbajiTheDeceiver » Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:38 am

You wanna duck? Here's a duck!

Image

Regarding elves, dwarfs (that was the RQ spelling) and chaos, here's what my old RQ III Glorantha book has to say on elves. Of course, all of this might change when the new Glorantha book comes out, and you're always free to adapt and modify as you see fit.
About Aldryami wrote:These species belong to the vegetable kingdom. As essentially mobile plants, they are significantly different from other humanoids and beasts ... each species seems to derive from types of plant ... slight of frame, quick, and intelligent, the elves of Glorantha are a speciaes coupled to trees ... come in various races, identified as colours by humans, dependent on the type of forest in which they are found
I deliberately bolded some stuff there cos I think - if you want more "traditional" appearing elves - the use of the word "as" gives you scope for it.

There's not much about Dwarfs that hasn't already been said, but Chaos is interesting:
About Chaos wrote:though chaos itself is formless and structureless, mutual corruption of chaos and order ... manifested in disgusting, cruel and evil living things.
So Chaos sounds more like the definition of Entropy (or a heat death of the universe scenario), and is nothing to do with evil, which arises when both chaos and order corrupt each other.

And that's the beauty of Glorantha - it's not just another generic fantasy world where the only thing that's different is the shape of the coastline. If you're not used to it and you don't know what to expect, you're better off throwing everything you know out the window, cos if you try to relate it to previous experience you'll probably only end up freaking yourself out rather badly!!!
Archer
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Postby Archer » Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:55 am

Darran wrote: I guess they may have Gloranthan elves in the Gloranthan books and your vanilla elves in the core book or core creatures book?
That would be acceptable. I could then show the players the "vanilla" elves only.
homerjsinnott
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Postby homerjsinnott » Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:30 am

Archer wrote:
Darran wrote: I guess they may have Gloranthan elves in the Gloranthan books and your vanilla elves in the core book or core creatures book?
That would be acceptable. I could then show the players the "vanilla" elves only.
Purhaps you need some different players...


If you want, I could send the Runners round...
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"I would rather be a Troll than a chimp brained pompous system bigot like you."
It's the system bigot bit I don't understand, and I like chimps.

I was a God Learner experiment.
estarriol
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Postby estarriol » Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:56 am

homerjsinnott wrote:
Archer wrote:
Darran wrote: I guess they may have Gloranthan elves in the Gloranthan books and your vanilla elves in the core book or core creatures book?
That would be acceptable. I could then show the players the "vanilla" elves only.
Purhaps you need some different players...


If you want, I could send the Runners round...
The biggest shock people get from RQ elves apart from the fact they can be the enemy (unusual in a RPG, except for the racism that encompasses drow) is the poisen wielding, ambush based sneak attacks, for anyone with a Tolkienesque idea of noble elves, it is quite a culture shock.......

I have had Elf characters, in fact they are one of the btter races, no big hit, but the high Intelligence more than made up for that.
Archer
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Postby Archer » Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:57 am

homerjsinnott wrote:
Archer wrote:
Darran wrote: I guess they may have Gloranthan elves in the Gloranthan books and your vanilla elves in the core book or core creatures book?
That would be acceptable. I could then show the players the "vanilla" elves only.
Purhaps you need some different players...


If you want, I could send the Runners round...
Nah, I do not think so.
What I need is a set of rules I can really work with (RuneQuest) and a rather generic fantasy setting that I can mold according to our groups preferenses.

Visual style is very important when I try to sell the setting to my players. They easily discard a setting where things does not look the way they want it, or where things are too odd.

So the best way is to start with a setting that is generic, and has a good visual style that is not too odd, and then modify it as we go along.

I am working on a fantasy setting that is specifically suited to our groups needs, but that takes time, and it will not be ready by the time when we will start playing RuneQuest (probably).
Archer
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Postby Archer » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:02 pm

estarriol wrote:
homerjsinnott wrote:
Archer wrote: That would be acceptable. I could then show the players the "vanilla" elves only.
Purhaps you need some different players...


If you want, I could send the Runners round...
The biggest shock people get from RQ elves apart from the fact they can be the enemy (unusual in a RPG, except for the racism that encompasses drow) is the poisen wielding, ambush based sneak attacks, for anyone with a Tolkienesque idea of noble elves, it is quite a culture shock.......
Not to me or our gaming group. We are used to play WFRP, so the elves are certainly not noble, kind, etc. The druchii, high elves, and wood elves are all quite intresting and not the standard tolkien elves, but still they look distinctly like an elf.
estarriol
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Postby estarriol » Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:59 pm

Archer wrote:
estarriol wrote:
homerjsinnott wrote: Purhaps you need some different players...


If you want, I could send the Runners round...
The biggest shock people get from RQ elves apart from the fact they can be the enemy (unusual in a RPG, except for the racism that encompasses drow) is the poisen wielding, ambush based sneak attacks, for anyone with a Tolkienesque idea of noble elves, it is quite a culture shock.......
Not to me or our gaming group. We are used to play WFRP, so the elves are certainly not noble, kind, etc. The druchii, high elves, and wood elves are all quite intresting and not the standard tolkien elves, but still they look distinctly like an elf.
Not Tolkienesque Elves in Warhammer, the Noble High Elves who left for there own island, the Wood Elves who stayed behind in the Woods, its a pure Tolkien lift, then compounded by there lift of Dark Elves from D&D. Your quoting one of the most derivative settings ever as a reason that its original? I am not saying WHFRP is bad, just highly derivative.
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Postby Urox » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:25 pm

Archer wrote:What I need is a set of rules I can really work with (RuneQuest) and a rather generic fantasy setting that I can mold according to our groups preferenses.
For me, RuneQuest == Glorantha, and it has failed for every other setting.

The beauty of the rules was in how closely they were tied setting.

I don't recall seeing any explanatory boxes in the previews, but the core rules will be a hard sell (for me) without being as well integrated as the Rurik Runespear examples.
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Postby Archer » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:30 pm

estarriol: Of course it is derivative. But they are not the same elves that you find in D&D. Elves in the Warhammer world are not the nice, goody-good-two-shoes tree huggers that you find in D&D.
And the druchii are far apart from the drow. There is not much in common between them beyond the fact that they are "evil" (evil being a relative term in WFRP).

Even if the elves are derivatives of Tolkien, they are changed enough that they are intressting, and only partially the generic elf.
It is mostly the history of the elves, and just a part of it (the short thing about them leaving the mainland, and some stayed behind), that is derivative from Tolkien. The rest, such as culture, they have more in common with Moorcock´s Melnibonéans. Especially the High elves and the druchii.

In fact, if you check the warhammer history (the game, not the world), Melnibonéan miniatures was available for WFB, but then they got an angry M. Moorcock on their tail, and the minis quickly was renamed Dark elves.

The point is, you said that gloranthan elves would be a shock to most players because "they are the enemy". And that is what I commented about. If you have played WFRP long enough, you will not be surprised that elves are "the enemy" or are capable of performing evil deeds.

In fact, only MERP, LoTR RPG, and D&D are the only games where I can really say that elves are truly good, and are fully following the archetype set down by Tolkien. There are probably more games, but those were those I can remember at the moment.

It can even be argued that the Gloranthan elves in their visual style are derivative of Tolkiens works, since the elves of folklore and mythology does not look anything remotely like Gloranthan elves. And the only "original" about them, is that they are plants (which in some cases seem to affect how they look, and sometimes it does not).

And another point is that the looks of elves does not have to be what makes them unique or original. Just as humans it is their culture, their religion, and their mindset that mostly makes them original or not (though it can also be argued that no fantasy race is original since it is only an aspect of a human culture or the human psyche).

Which brings me to another point. Namely suspension-of-disbelief and the ability of a player to relate to the character he is playing. By definition (so far) a player is a human being, and we human beings relate more easily with beings that looks like us humans, works like us humans, or are some aspect of us humans.
As such fantasy races by definition becomes an aspect of a human culture or a part of the human psyche. We most easily relate to these creatures if they meet our expectations of how the aspect they are part of should look.
For example, orcs most often are warlike, brutish, and stupid. Is it then a coincidence that we portray orcs as muscular, hairy, strong, and somewhat primitive in their appearance?
This is basically why I think my players (and probably others) discard races that simply are made to look "different" for the sake of being original.

Think for a while if you would manage to role-play a dolphin, a dog, a carrot, any plant, and relate to that character as much as if you were playing a human character, or a near-human character.

And now I wrote a much longer post than I had intended. I never intended this thread to explode in such a fashion as it has done. I just wanted to know if the elves and dwarves were of the generic or the bizarre sort... :roll:
Archer
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Postby Archer » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:34 pm

Urox wrote:The beauty of the rules was in how closely they were tied setting.
Funny, I was just thinking on how well the RQ rulesset have worked with other settings, since it spawned the Basic Role-play rules-set and has been successfully used for other settings, with nearly no modification at all.

Example: Stormbringer 1st-3rd ed, ElfQuest, Drakar och Demoner 1-2, etc.

Perhaps the rules were not so closely tied to the setting as they are percieved to be. Perhaps they only were well adapted to work with Glorantha, but works equally well for other settings?
GbajiTheDeceiver
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Postby GbajiTheDeceiver » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:52 pm

Archer wrote:Perhaps the rules were not so closely tied to the setting as they are percieved to be. Perhaps they only were well adapted to work with Glorantha, but works equally well for other settings?
It was always more the Cults and the uniqueness of many of the creatures rather than anything specific in the rule mechanics.

If you drop the Cults and import a load of more generic creatures, it should be very readily adaptable to any setting.

You could deal with the "everyone knows magic" element in somewhat different terms: such as a warrior type who prays to his god, or dangles charms from his weapon, before entering combat. Something like: "oh great lord of war, grant me courage and a true blade to smite this foe". This can then replicate the effect of a spell, but it need not necessarily be seen as casting a spell. I think this was very probably the original RQ intention, but it's ended up being muddied by people who were unable (or unwilling???) to view it in those terms.

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