Elves and Dwarves?

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Elves and Dwarves?

Postby Archer » Thu May 25, 2006 5:47 pm

Hmm, when I read about glorantha on wikipedia, some of the information regarding Glorantha began to come back to me.

"Dwarves are literally made of stone and exist as manifest rigid inflexible laws of creation, while elves are intelligent, mobile plants."

Is this something that still is the case?
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Re: Elves and Dwarves?

Postby Wulf Corbett » Thu May 25, 2006 7:46 pm

Archer wrote:Hmm, when I read about glorantha on wikipedia, some of the information regarding Glorantha began to come back to me.

"Dwarves are literally made of stone and exist as manifest rigid inflexible laws of creation, while elves are intelligent, mobile plants."

Is this something that still is the case?
This is somewhet inaccurate about dwarfs. Elves (Aldryami) are certainly mobile intelligent plants. They are Aldrya's children, born of the runes of Plant and Man.

Originally, Dwarfs (properly called Mostali) were created by Mostal of Man and Stasis (Stasis=stone), but were of different sorts according to their purpose. Quicksilver Mostali were alchemists, Diamond Mostali were... erm... can't remember... etc. There were 8 types, I think. When the elder races started warring, the Iron Mostali were created as warriors. These 'true' Mostali were created as cogs in the Great Machine, their purpose was to ensure smooth running. They were, essentially, rigid and inflexable. But after the Great Machine was broken, a whole load more workers were needed to mend it, and the Clay Mostali, the ones properly known as Dwarfs, were created. These are clearly inferior, and are capable of such heretical abberant behaviours as Openhandedness, Invividualism, and other irrational ideas. These are the dwarfs commonly seen in the Middle World of Glorantha.

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Postby Archer » Thu May 25, 2006 7:51 pm

Hmm, so, the dwarves are flesh, and not stone then?

I am going to have a hard time selling the setting to my current group with elves that are plants (unless it is something that is not noticeable in their appearance, and can easily be ignored).
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Thu May 25, 2006 7:56 pm

Archer wrote:Hmm, so, the dwarves are flesh, and not stone then?
The Gloranthan answer is that all living things are products of magic and their substance is dependant on their origin. My answer is "Yup".
I am going to have a hard time selling the setting to my current group with elves that are plants (unless it is something that is not noticeable in their appearance, and can easily be ignored).
Now there's a question... In the original RuneQuest releases, Elves were the beautiful and lovely creations of illustrator Louise Perrine, and beyond mere human. More recent HeroQuest illustrations have them with twigs, leaves and bark. Which, in my opinion, is another reason why HeroQuest screwed up...

They have a tanned or olive skin, and short, leaf-like hair in the description, but I always imagined them getting quite colourful hair in spring...

Incidentally, Giants never stop growing, and eventually become sessile, ossified, and, eventually, mountains...

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Postby Archer » Thu May 25, 2006 8:02 pm

Wulf Corbett wrote:
Archer wrote:Hmm, so, the dwarves are flesh, and not stone then?
The Gloranthan answer is that all living things are products of magic and their substance is dependant on their origin. My answer is "Yup".
I am going to have a hard time selling the setting to my current group with elves that are plants (unless it is something that is not noticeable in their appearance, and can easily be ignored).
Now there's a question... In the original RuneQuest releases, Elves were the beautiful and lovely creations of illustrator Louise Perrine, and beyond mere human. More recent HeroQuest illustrations have them with twigs, leaves and bark. Which, in my opinion, is another reason why HeroQuest screwed up...

They have a tanned or olive skin, and short, leaf-like hair in the description, but I always imagined them getting quite colourful hair in spring...

Incidentally, Giants never stop growing, and eventually become sessile, ossified, and, eventually, mountains...

Wulf
Hmm, I wonder what they will go with in the new RuneQuest....

Thank you for the information. I have not looked at glorantha since I put my RQ books away more than 18 years ago, so I have forgotten just about everything, except the ducks and broos....
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Thu May 25, 2006 8:08 pm

Archer wrote:Hmm, I wonder what they will go with in the new RuneQuest....
They had damned well beter be in the Glorantha books, or else it IS NOT Glorantha. That was the whole point of Glorantha, it wasn't just another generic fantasy world, it took all the traditional fantasy cliches, left them recognisable and playable, but then warped every little detail to a new level of fantasy.

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Postby Archer » Thu May 25, 2006 8:12 pm

Wulf Corbett wrote:
Archer wrote:Hmm, I wonder what they will go with in the new RuneQuest....
They had damned well beter be in the Glorantha books, or else it IS NOT Glorantha. That was the whole point of Glorantha, it wasn't just another generic fantasy world, it took all the traditional fantasy cliches, left them recognisable and playable, but then warped every little detail to a new level of fantasy.

Wulf
Well, I more meant, how will elves look in the new version of RQ and Glorantha? :)
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Thu May 25, 2006 8:15 pm

Archer wrote:Well, I more meant, how will elves look in the new version of RQ and Glorantha? :)
Still to be seen...

And the world has yet to see one single illustartion of a Duck that doesn't look bloody silly...

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Postby Archer » Thu May 25, 2006 8:18 pm

Wulf Corbett wrote:
Archer wrote:Well, I more meant, how will elves look in the new version of RQ and Glorantha? :)
Still to be seen...

And the world has yet to see one single illustartion of a Duck that doesn't look bloody silly...

Wulf
I think the ducks in the RQ3 "bestiary" book I bought at the same time as the Deluxe box (made by Chaosium I think) looked ok.

However, ducks was also introduced into a swedish copy of RuneQuest that leaned more to towards the D&D roots, called Drakar&Demoner. The ducks went through several distinct looks there as well, and eventually (and horrifically) looked like donald duck...
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Postby wartorn » Thu May 25, 2006 9:55 pm

Wulf Corbett wrote:
Archer wrote:Well, I more meant, how will elves look in the new version of RQ and Glorantha? :)
Still to be seen...

And the world has yet to see one single illustartion of a Duck that doesn't look bloody silly...

Wulf
May I endanger myself by speculating that 'silly' is the point of ducks? There are a lot of novel, creative, and deliciouslyl non-Tolkien ideas in Glorantha. It's a shame there's this fatty layer of ...'whimsical'... humour on top of it that makes it hard to sell to the average group.
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Thu May 25, 2006 10:00 pm

wartorn wrote:May I endanger myself by speculating that 'silly' is the point of ducks? There are a lot of novel, creative, and deliciouslyl non-Tolkien ideas in Glorantha. It's a shame there's this fatty layer of ...'whimsical'... humour on top of it that makes it hard to sell to the average group.
Personally I don't mind whimsical, in fact I don't even mind occasional bloody silly. It's the polar opposites of unremittingly bloody silly (ducks...) and anally serious (most of HeroQuest) I object to...

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Postby Archer » Thu May 25, 2006 10:02 pm

wartorn wrote:
Wulf Corbett wrote:
Archer wrote:Well, I more meant, how will elves look in the new version of RQ and Glorantha? :)
Still to be seen...

And the world has yet to see one single illustartion of a Duck that doesn't look bloody silly...

Wulf
May I endanger myself by speculating that 'silly' is the point of ducks? There are a lot of novel, creative, and deliciouslyl non-Tolkien ideas in Glorantha. It's a shame there's this fatty layer of ...'whimsical'... humour on top of it that makes it hard to sell to the average group.
Yes, the ducks are meant to be an element of humor. But the pirate duck in the Monster Boken for swedish RPG Drakar&Demoner was one of the meanest I have ever seen. Unfortunately, I can not find it at the moment.
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Postby Turloigh » Fri May 26, 2006 7:58 am

Archer wrote:Hmm, I wonder what they will go with in the new RuneQuest....
May I kindly remind everyone that 'race' is a function of the setting, not the system. If Gloranthan elves are mobile plants, they're likely to stay that way, no matter what version of the game you are playing.

That said, nobody will mind if you change your own Gloranthan elves to flesh-and-blood creatures. (That's what I might do, if I ever was to GM in Glorantha.)
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Fri May 26, 2006 8:13 am

Turloigh wrote:That said, nobody will mind if you change your own Gloranthan elves to flesh-and-blood creatures. (That's what I might do, if I ever was to GM in Glorantha.)
Ah, but they ARE flesh and blood, they're just plants...

Attempting to put a modern scientific outlook on a mythic fantasy setting is a mistake. To our theoretical fantasy distant ancestors, the ideas of 'plant' and 'flesh and blood' were no more than surface appearances. If a plant moves around like a man, they wouldn't question the biology of it, only the magical/spiritual origin.

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Postby Turloigh » Fri May 26, 2006 8:39 am

Wulf Corbett wrote:Attempting to put a modern scientific outlook on a mythic fantasy setting is a mistake.
HAH! :lol: Amen to that. :wink:

So, there are Gloranthan half-elves after all? (Officially, I mean?)
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Postby sexy_davey » Fri May 26, 2006 8:46 am

Personally, I really like the idea of elves as "not just good looking, thin humans", and I emphasise the fact they are walking, talking plants to my players when describing them, precisely to emphasise their difference. I like the idea of 'farm boys' (or girls) discovering the big wide world of Glorantha, and finding things they coiuld never imagine had they stayed on the farm.

On the half elf front, I can't remember any 'official' ones off the top of my head, but hey - it's your glorantha! Go crazy! Have a half elf/half troll!

...

On second thought, perhaps not... :shock:
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Postby Turloigh » Fri May 26, 2006 9:05 am

sexy_davey wrote:Have a half elf/half troll!
Nah, wrong game. That was ElfQuest. :P

Come to think of it - Two-Edge is actually a cool character for guest appearances... Hmmm...
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal death in judgement."
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Fri May 26, 2006 9:50 am

Turloigh wrote:So, there are Gloranthan half-elves after all? (Officially, I mean?)
There's one. Pavis, founder of the city of that name, was supposedly a half-elf. It required extensive Heroquesting an visits to various Gods...

But... humans and other races could BECOME Aldryami. Initiation consists of having all your bones ripped out and replaced by sticks, and your organs removed and replaced by flowers. Bury the body overwinter, and if Aldrya approves, you will be reborn with the elves in Spring. I had a character did that.

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Postby Archer » Fri May 26, 2006 9:53 am

Wulf Corbett wrote:
Turloigh wrote:That said, nobody will mind if you change your own Gloranthan elves to flesh-and-blood creatures. (That's what I might do, if I ever was to GM in Glorantha.)
Ah, but they ARE flesh and blood, they're just plants...

Attempting to put a modern scientific outlook on a mythic fantasy setting is a mistake. To our theoretical fantasy distant ancestors, the ideas of 'plant' and 'flesh and blood' were no more than surface appearances. If a plant moves around like a man, they wouldn't question the biology of it, only the magical/spiritual origin.

Wulf
Thank you for that. I imagined them being made of plant material. Then when you mentioned green, yellow and brown elf, the warning bells rang loud and clear. I have had my fill of cheesy fantasy when i GMed Talislanta.

I guess elves are "plants" in the mythological sense, sort of like the mythological chinese view that everything was made from fire,water, earth, air, and wood. Correct?
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Postby Archer » Fri May 26, 2006 9:55 am

Wulf Corbett wrote:
Turloigh wrote:So, there are Gloranthan half-elves after all? (Officially, I mean?)
There's one. Pavis, founder of the city of that name, was supposedly a half-elf. It required extensive Heroquesting an visits to various Gods...

But... humans and other races could BECOME Aldryami. Initiation consists of having all your bones ripped out and replaced by sticks, and your organs removed and replaced by flowers. Bury the body overwinter, and if Aldrya approves, you will be reborn with the elves in Spring. I had a character did that.

Wulf
You mean that they really are made of plant material? but they looke like they are made out of flesh and blood. And that they are affected by the climate just like normal plants?

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