State of Mongoose 2019 & 2020: Legend

Discover the Legend RPG, Mongoose's fantasy game.
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Vile
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Re: State of Mongoose 2019 & 2020: Legend

Postby Vile » Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:08 am

Carew wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:45 pm
soltakss wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:28 pm
They have clarified that the Legend OGL is perfectly valid.
So what does Jeff of Chaosium mean when he said on 28 march on the BRP SRD thread: "If you think the Legend OGL is "cast-iron", then you are fooling yourself. Heck, on the face of it, the very license used is invalid."?
I believe the term for it is called "vague booking" or something. Making unsubstantiated statements in the hope that enough people will believe you to have the desired effect. Given the almost universal pushback (and the fact that out of the entire RPG industry only one company keeps taking this stance), I don't think it's working.

Back to Legend, another thing I've come to realise because of this furore is just how pervasive Legend has beome as the D100 OGL of choice - Delta Green, Revolution D100, OpenQuest (though still waiting for D101's update?), Open Cthulhu - possibly more. Even I am looking at it again, and I have my own D100 systems in the works - but there are some things I may prefer to do with Legend, for the simple reason that the OGL was designed to do - to produce content that can be taken and expanded upon by others with no oversight from me.
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Re: State of Mongoose 2019 & 2020: Legend

Postby Carew » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:36 pm

I believe the term for it is called "vague booking" or something. Making unsubstantiated statements in the hope that enough people will believe you to have the desired effect. Given the almost universal pushback (and the fact that out of the entire RPG industry only one company keeps taking this stance), I don't think it's working.
Yes. It also means you can't trust anything he says because he seems to amend his position according to how he feels. That does not bode well for a license that has so many restrictions and prohibited things!
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Re: State of Mongoose 2019 & 2020: Legend

Postby medievaladventures » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:28 pm

In my opinion, what they are attempting to do regarding the Legend OGL would be called FUD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_unc ... _and_doubt
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Re: State of Mongoose 2019 & 2020: Legend

Postby Vile » Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:05 am

FUD, that's what I was thinking of! I think we really need to push back against this tactic, because it does seem to be working on a number of gamers going by their responses on forums. Well, in any case I have lost interest in the BRP NOGL as it's plain the authors are evading all serious questions from potential users. I'm suddenly much more interested in developing something under the Legend OGL now, and have started delving into the core book in detail. I expect to be seriously working on something within this year.
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Re: State of Mongoose 2019 & 2020: Legend

Postby soltakss » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:28 am

Carew wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:45 pm
soltakss wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:28 pm
They have clarified that the Legend OGL is perfectly valid.
So what does Jeff of Chaosium mean when he said on 28 march on the BRP SRD thread: "If you think the Legend OGL is "cast-iron", then you are fooling yourself. Heck, on the face of it, the very license used is invalid."?
He doesn't think that the OGL will stand up to a serious legal challenge in the courts, as non-D20 implementations are outside the scope, from what I have seen.

Having said that, I don't think Chaosium is interested in such a legal challenge and have accepted that the Legend OGL is valid inasmuch as the OGL is valid.
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Re: State of Mongoose 2019 & 2020: Legend

Postby Carew » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:49 pm

He doesn't think that the OGL will stand up to a serious legal challenge in the courts, as non-D20 implementations are outside the scope, from what I have seen.
Does the OGL say that its only intended for D20 systems? or WOTC systems?
Having said that, I don't think Chaosium is interested in such a legal challenge and have accepted that the Legend OGL is valid inasmuch as the OGL is valid.
Yeah I saw what he said a few posts on. Weasel words. All these aside comments are a challenge, just not in a court room with lawyers and juries. They are designed to sow doubt and confusion. Its mounting a challenge against the industry and the way its worked for a long time. Can't see the industry being too happy if throwaway things like this result in a court case.

But hey, yeah. My opinion of Chaosium ain't all that high right now. Not that it matters one way or any way.
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Re: State of Mongoose 2019 & 2020: Legend

Postby Vile » Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:04 pm

FUD is standard corporate practice. Spreading rumours and sending boilerplate C&D letters costs nothing but gets results (as we're all aware in this age of Facebook memes). 99% never go further because lawyers cost money and most claims are dubious at best and spurious at worst.

The (real) OGL has withstood the test of time, with a vast catalogue of successful examples of use well beyond d20 - as the licence is in no way constrained or even related to specific systems.

That said, it is up to us to call BS and shout it from the rooftops when certain parties try this on. The power of the internet is huge, and if false claims like this are allowed to go unchallenged, everybody loses. FUD can become de facto reality very quickly.

In another attempt to drag this back on topic, does anyone know just which games are making use of the Legend OGL?
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Re: State of Mongoose 2019 & 2020: Legend

Postby Prime_Evil » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:02 pm

soltakss wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:28 am
He doesn't think that the OGL will stand up to a serious legal challenge in the courts, as non-D20 implementations are outside the scope, from what I have seen.
Back around 2000, WoTC sponsored the creation of the independent Open Gaming Foundation to support non-D20 use of the OGL. Indeed, Ryan Dancey from WoTC was the chair of the foundation for a couple of years. The website is still extant, but the mailing list is long dead:

http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/

It's worth reading the sections of the Official OGL FAQ from Wizards dealing with trademark compatibility. The reason there was a separate d20 Trademark Licence was to give publishers the right to claim a degree of compatibility with D&D - by default, the OGL is a "universal" licenses; you need a separate Compatibility licence to claim compatibility with a specific trademarked game system.

In the case of Legend, Mongoose, released the entire contents of the Legend Core Rulebook and all of the XXXXX of Legend books as Open Game Content. This includes Pirates of Legend, Samurai of Legend, Gladiators of Legend, the Arcania of Legend books, etc. It explicitly DOES NOT include anything from the Elric product line, the Xoth product line, the Deus Vult product line, or the Sheoloth product line*. Land of Ice and Snow is a special case - it contains a small amount of OGC, but most of it is closed.

To use the Legend OGC, you must comply with the terms of the Open Game License - which means that you need to attach a copy of the licence to your work and update Section 15 to list ALL of the works that you used Open Game Content from. You also need to clearly identify what parts of your work are designated as Open Game Content and which parts are Product Identity. It's considered good form to give at least some Open Game Content of your own back to the community.

If you want to indicate compatibility with the Legend game system and use the Legend logo on your work, you need to comply with the Compatibility license offered by Mongoose. This was available at http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/leglogopack.zip but it seems to have gone AWOL. A copy is still available from the Internet Archive at https://web.archive.org/web/20160403203 ... gopack.zip. The full text of the Compatibility Licence was:
Legend Compatible Logo

The entire text of the Legend RPG is designated Open Game Content, as is the entire text of all books in this line with plain colour covers and the words ‘… of Legend’ in their title.

By using any Open Content material in any of these books, you also have permission to freely use the Legend Compatible logo on any publication or web site where this Open Content is used or modified. The Legend Compatible logo may be re-sized but may not otherwise be altered in any way.

Legend, the text of Legend rulebooks, the Legend logo and the Legend Compatible logo remain Copyright Mongoose Publishing 2011.

Any and all artwork included in Legend rulebooks is specifically not designated as Open Content, and may not be used without written permission from Mongoose Publishing.
In legal terms, this appears to be a perpetual, non-exclusive, royalty-free licence to use the logo. It is very permissive compared to other compatibility licences out there.

* There are a couple of minor things in one of the Sheoloth books that I wrote here on the forums and released as OGC, but that's the only exception I'm aware of. The author asked me for permission to include them anyway, so it's all good :)

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