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State of Legend

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:46 pm
by Carew
http://blog.mongoosepublishing.co.uk/?p=849

Not a single word about Legend. Not. A. Single. Word. Not one. Not a mention in passing, not a breath, not a 'we're doing nothing with Legend in 2018, but haven't forgotten.' Its as though the game doesn't exist and never did exist.

Is it fair to say Legend has been abandoned comnpletely? Sure looks like it from here. If it hasn't, why no mention of it in State of the mongoose for the second year running? Traveller? Check! Paranoia? Check! Victory At Sea? Check and Check. Legend? Yeah, right.

Kind of confirms what we'd suspected before I guess. Let the system quietly die, unloved and unwanted, in the corner, where no on notices. Very sad,

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:39 pm
by soltakss
Looks like it.

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:21 pm
by medievaladventures
Yeah, I think anyone who is looking for new material will have to convert Mythras (RQ6) material that is being published.

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:51 am
by Prime_Evil
Carew wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:46 pm
http://blog.mongoosepublishing.co.uk/?p=849

Not a single word about Legend. Not. A. Single. Word. Not one. Not a mention in passing, not a breath, not a 'we're doing nothing with Legend in 2018, but haven't forgotten.' Its as though the game doesn't exist and never did exist.
It's certainly disappointing. But I don't think it's malicious. Mongoose seem to have abandoned fantasy RPGs in general since the end of the D&D 4e era. Even though the market for fantasy has revived, they have concentrated on other markets.
Carew wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:46 pm
Is it fair to say Legend has been abandoned comnpletely? Sure looks like it from here. If it hasn't, why no mention of it in State of the mongoose for the second year running? Traveller? Check! Paranoia? Check! Victory At Sea? Check and Check. Legend? Yeah, right.
Based upon previous statements for Matt, I get the feeling that they would like to do something with Legend, but don't have the resources to do so. They had a very aggressive publishing schedule for Traveller in 2017 and were also committed to delivering on the Paranoia kickstarter.

I suspect that sales of Legend products have not been strong enough to justify making the game a priority. From memory, the 2016 Bundle of Holding for Legend raised about $5-$6 K. This is respectable, but not in the same league as bundles such as the PARANOIA Classic bundle the previous month (which raised $31.4K). The relative financial numbers may explain why one game gets more attention than the other.

I get the feeling that Mongoose were surprised by the initial success of Legend and didn't really know how to capitalize on it. People forget that Legend was initially a solid best-seller for Mongoose - after some disappointing results for MRQ II. They never developed a strategy around the game and allowed it to be eclipsed by RQ 6 (which had superior production values and clarified many rules).

Also, the market for D100 games is in a state of flux right now. Consider the rise of RQ 6 / Mythras and the shifting plans of Chaosium with regard to Runequest. And consider the growing prominence of variants such as OpenQuest, Renaissance, and Revolution D100. It may be that Mongoose are concerned that the d100 market is getting a bit too crowded to jump back in.

I'd argue that there is still space for Legend, but it needs to carve out a clear niche for itself - OpenQuest offers a streamlined play experience, Renaissance focuses exlusively on the early modern era, and Revolution is more experimental in nature. Given that the best selling Legend sourcebook appears to be the Spider God's Bride, this may hint where the game should focus. Legend could focus on delivering a solid pulp fantasy / swords and sorcery experience for the D100 system. Most of the pieces are there already - it just needs a bit of work to pull them together.
Carew wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:46 pm
Kind of confirms what we'd suspected before I guess. Let the system quietly die, unloved and unwanted, in the corner, where no on notices. Very sad,
Legend is released under the Open Game License, so it is only dead if we let it die. The compatibility licence is very permissive and anybody can produce new material for the game. The key text reads:
The entire text of the Legend RPG is designated Open Game Content, as is the entire text of all books in this line with plain colour covers and the words ‘… of Legend’ in their title.

By using any Open Content material in any of these books, you also have permission to freely use the Legend Compatible logo on any publication or web site where this Open Content is used or modified. The Legend Compatible logo may be re-sized but may not otherwise be altered in any way.

Legend, the text of Legend rulebooks, the Legend logo and the Legend Compatible logo remain Copyright Mongoose Publishing 2011.

Any and all artwork included in Legend rulebooks is specifically not designated as Open Content, and may not be used without written permission from Mongoose Publishing.
Heck, we could even fork it and produce our own version if we want to.

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:53 am
by Prime_Evil
medievaladventures wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:21 pm
Yeah, I think anyone who is looking for new material will have to convert Mythras (RQ6) material that is being published.
Legend and Mythras (RQ 6) are such close cousins that this is trivial to do during play - you can use Legend material in your Mythras game too. This is a good thing for both systems.

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:41 am
by msprange
Hey guys,

We are not looking to abandon Legend (that would be silly), and I have some ideas of where we need to take it, but we just have too many projects hanging around at the moment.

Take heart from the Victory at sea guys - they have been waiting for years, and we are finally going to be doing them justice this year...

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:23 pm
by Carew
We are not looking to abandon Legend (that would be silly), and I have some ideas of where we need to take it, but we just have too many projects hanging around at the moment.
Thank you msprange, for these words. But why didn't you say them in the state of the Mongoose piece? I can understand and accept competing priorities, but when you completely fail to mention a line 2 years in a row it doesn't just shake confidence it crushes it. Can you share the ideas you have? Give us a few crumbs of hope?
Legend is released under the Open Game License, so it is only dead if we let it die. The compatibility licence is very permissive and anybody can produce new material for the game.
Yeah Prime Evil, it does say that. I don't know about you, but I don't see a lot of 3rd party support either for Legend. Thats because Legend hasn't got that much visibility, because its not had much support by its publishers, which means publishers who might be interested in D100 games go with another system that has got support because the sales will be likely higher. So I don't believe that the OGL is a guarantee of anything.

Look, I'm not trying to beat up on anyone. I'm just frustrated that a game I really like by a publisher I really like is stuck in a limbo like this. Longer its stuck, tougher it'll be to save it. A game line shouldn't have to rely on third party publishers to support it. Its creator needs to promote it and believe in it. I drop back here from time to time to see if there's any news and always feel sad when there isn't. That's all.

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:32 pm
by medievaladventures
Prime_Evil wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:51 am
Legend is released under the Open Game License, so it is only dead if we let it die. The compatibility licence is very permissive and anybody can produce new material for the game. . .Heck, we could even fork it and produce our own version if we want to.
Yeah, I'm really grateful that Matt/Mongoose made Legend OGL.
msprange wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:41 am
Hey guys,

We are not looking to abandon Legend (that would be silly), and I have some ideas of where we need to take it, but we just have too many projects hanging around at the moment.

Take heart from the Victory at sea guys - they have been waiting for years, and we are finally going to be doing them justice this year...
Thanks Matt.

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:45 pm
by Rikki Tikki Traveller
Personally, I don't expect Mongoose to support this system. If they do, fine, if not, that's OK too.

The entire system is SRD now, so I don't NEED Mongoose. I can publish my own stuff and keep the system alive that way.

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:28 am
by Prime_Evil
Rikki Tikki Traveller wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:45 pm
Personally, I don't expect Mongoose to support this system. If they do, fine, if not, that's OK too.

The entire system is SRD now, so I don't NEED Mongoose. I can publish my own stuff and keep the system alive that way.
While I agree with what you are saying, it would be nice to see Mongoose produce more Legend products.

Although many of the works published so far are updates to MRQII material, there have been a couple of original pieces that deserve special mention - I'd point to Arcania of Legend - Elementalism and Land of Ice and Stone. It is also nice to have updated versions of the historical books - Vikings of Legend, Samurai of Legend, and Pirates of Legend. Heck, we even got Gladiators of Legend as a bonus. The Deus Vult series was also nice, but it would be good to see more as the line is still a bit sparse.

And we were very lucky that Pete Nash's Blood Magic book finally saw the light of day. With the benefit of hindsight, this is the point at which the development of RQ 6 / Mythras started to diverge from that of MRQ II / Legend - you can see the seeds of some of the rule changes between MRQII and Mythras in that work.

There are still a number of MRQ II books that haven't yet been adapted to Legend - I'd love to see updated versions of the superb MRQII Empires and Necromantic Arts. It would just be a matter of stripping the material specific to Glorantha and the Eternal Champion, updating the rules to the new edition, and then adding some new content to fill the gaps. Heck, I'd offer to do it myself if I thought Mongoose was interested :lol: . And then there's the wealth of non-Gloranthan material in the MRQ I back catalogue. Most of this could be updated and repackaged for Legend. Unfortunately, the resources that Mongoose has in-house to do the necessary editorial and layout tasks is committed to other product lines at the present time.

Also, I think Matt deserves some kudos for continuing to believe in the rule system. Sales of MRQII weren't stellar and the game could have died right there and then. But Matt had enough faith in the game that he gave it another lease of life as Legend - and release it under the OGL for everyone to use for their own purposes. In case you haven't noticed, a number of recent d100 games credit Legend in their Section 15 OGL notice - these include the new edition of Delta Green, Revolution D100, Renaissance, and Raiders of R’lyeh. So the generosity of Mongoose has already enriched the broader D100 ecosystem. And for that we should all be grateful - no matter what variant we are currently playing.

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:46 am
by legozhodani
I was looking at doing 'Portuguese conquestador' style games. Is the renaissance version worth looking at or shall I just wing it with the legend rules? I'm well up on the historical and arms for the period, just looking for extra 'flavour' really.

Cheers.

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:16 pm
by soltakss
legozhodani wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:46 am
I was looking at doing 'Portuguese conquestador' style games. Is the renaissance version worth looking at or shall I just wing it with the legend rules? I'm well up on the historical and arms for the period, just looking for extra 'flavour' really.
Renaissance would be good, but Pirates of Legend has a lot of black powder in it that could be used.

Personally, I prefer Legend to Renaissance, as Legend is based on MRQ2 whereas Renaissance is loosely based on MRQ1. However, the Renaissance rules do have a lot of character and flavour for a black powder game. I'd use the Renaissance background with stuff from Pirates of Legend in a Legend campaign.

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:44 pm
by Bifford
It has spurred me on to want to write up my Legend: Ancient Stones settings into a proper book. Might take me a while!

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:22 am
by Prime_Evil
Bifford wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:44 pm
It has spurred me on to want to write up my Legend: Ancient Stones settings into a proper book. Might take me a while!
Please do - I'd be very interested to see this!

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:33 am
by Prime_Evil
soltakss wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:16 pm
legozhodani wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:46 am
I was looking at doing 'Portuguese conquestador' style games. Is the renaissance version worth looking at or shall I just wing it with the legend rules? I'm well up on the historical and arms for the period, just looking for extra 'flavour' really.
Renaissance would be good, but Pirates of Legend has a lot of black powder in it that could be used.

Personally, I prefer Legend to Renaissance, as Legend is based on MRQ2 whereas Renaissance is loosely based on MRQ1. However, the Renaissance rules do have a lot of character and flavour for a black powder game. I'd use the Renaissance background with stuff from Pirates of Legend in a Legend campaign.
Renaissance was created when Cakebread & Walton were deciding what to do after the MRQII licence ended. It combines some material from MRQI SRD with material from the earliest iteration of OpenQuest. Having said that, it places more emphasis on the early modern period.

I'd also look at the Pirates & Dragons books from Cakebread & Walton for Renaissance - there is some good material in there that can provide additional inspiration.

The BRP Blood Tide book from Chaosium might also be useful.

The old d20 sourcebook Skull & Bones: Swashbuckling Adventures from Green Ronin contains some decent OGC for the era, but adaptation would be required:

https://www.rpgnow.com/product/19330/Skull--Bones

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:34 pm
by Jeffrywith1e
Earlier in the thread it was mentioned that Mongoose seems to be focusing on mainly non-fantasy, focusing on sci-fi settings. Just look at how nice Traveller is!

Why not run with it? Wouldn't it be nice if Legend was revived with d100 Traveller material?! Would that be possible, even?

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:27 pm
by soltakss
Jeffrywith1e wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:34 pm
Earlier in the thread it was mentioned that Mongoose seems to be focusing on mainly non-fantasy, focusing on sci-fi settings. Just look at how nice Traveller is!

Why not run with it? Wouldn't it be nice if Legend was revived with d100 Traveller material?! Would that be possible, even?
Why would Mongoose do that? It would dilute the Traveller line and take resources from Traveller.

Don't get me wrong, I think that Legend SciFi would be awesome, but doubt whether Mongoose would be interested.

It would be like Chaosium bringing out a HeroQuest Horror series based on 1920s horror.

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:43 pm
by Hopeless
Post apocalyptic settings, imagine combining the two?

Traveller New Era using Legend?

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:49 pm
by Carew
Why not run with it? Wouldn't it be nice if Legend was revived with d100 Traveller material?! Would that be possible, even?
Already done with M space.

http://www.frostbytebooks.com/

Re: State of Legend

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:04 am
by Nickbergquist
M-Space is an okay adaptation of Mythras to SF, but lacks a lot of what I want in an SF RPG (the author admits he's not a "gear guy" which explains why tech.....which is really important to an SF game as I see it, is lacking in M-Space). River of Heaven is a better and more rounded package using OpenQuest, but the D100 market is seriously lacking its own "Traveller" level treatment for this genre.