New ruleset for Paranoia

Paranoia is Fun. Other games are not Fun. Buy Paranoia.
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Postby Danforth » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:37 am

(Erk, apologies for third post in a row...)

I see from Planet Mongoose that the Troubleshooters rulebook has gone to print. Does this mean time is running out for me to order Black Missions? Still scraping the pennies together here :)
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Postby broken serenity » Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:18 pm

just placed a pre order for the black missions book hope theres still some left?

was gonna buy the gm's screen but atm im not sure how usefull it'll be and £10 for what may end up being an expensive cardboard screen on my desk is abit much to spend really...unless theres more than just the screen?
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Postby Danforth » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:57 am

broken serenity wrote:just placed a pre order for the black missions book hope theres still some left?
I managed to scrape together Paypal pennies for a preorder too. Matthew Sprange said something along the lines of, everyone who wants a copy of Black Missions will get one, which suggests to me their print contract is flexible and they'll just run extras off if they get extra preorders. I'm sure they wouldn't take our money unless they were confident of giving us the book
was gonna buy the gm's screen but atm im not sure how usefull it'll be and £10 for what may end up being an expensive cardboard screen on my desk is abit much to spend really...unless theres more than just the screen?
The 2004 edition screen came with a 24-page booklet. Looks like this one is just a screen. Think I'll just open my laptop and use that (handy access to all the PDFs too :) )

Ah-ha, PDF preview is up (linked from the regular Paranoia: Troubleshooter listing, not the Black Missions one). Gotta say I'm not liking the internal art very much. It reminds me of the later West End stuff for 2nd edition. Still, as I have the 2004 rulebook I am pretty much viewing Black Missions as a bargain PDF bundle with a free spare copy of the rules thrown in :)
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Postby Weet-R-BIX » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:47 pm

Danforth wrote:I managed to scrape together Paypal pennies for a preorder too. Matthew Sprange said something along the lines of, everyone who wants a copy of Black Missions will get one, which suggests to me their print contract is flexible and they'll just run extras off if they get extra preorders. I'm sure they wouldn't take our money unless they were confident of giving us the book
If that's the case it's not really a limited edition, is it? The web page does say 1000 copies...

You'd think if they could do thta. they would have left the modules that were only available for 10 minutes accesible so people could complete their sets.
Danforth wrote:Ah-ha, PDF preview is up (linked from the regular Paranoia: Troubleshooter listing, not the Black Missions one). Gotta say I'm not liking the internal art very much. It reminds me of the later West End stuff for 2nd edition. Still, as I have the 2004 rulebook I am pretty much viewing Black Missions as a bargain PDF bundle with a free spare copy of the rules thrown in :)
I agree, the illustrations smack a bit too much of 5th edition. Not liking it at all.
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Postby Waspinator » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:14 pm

Do we know yet what the exact release date will be?
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Postby Weet-R-BIX » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:16 pm

According to the newsletter I got last night, there are only 50 copies left in stock at Mongoose...
Cheers
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Postby broken serenity » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:41 pm

my guess is in the next couple weeks probably to get the pre orders out in the mail before gencon so they can concentrate on that instead...could be wrong though.
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Postby MongooseMatt » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:38 am

Waspinator wrote:Do we know yet what the exact release date will be?
Black Missions is arriving at our warehouse this morning, and will be shipping out to distributors in the afternoon. Shops and mail order customers are likely to start seeing their copies on the week of the 10th.
Matthew Sprange

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Postby broken serenity » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:42 pm

awesome, i think i'll grab flashbacks and the other pdf's not on the disc so i have something to read to get in the right mindset whilst i wait for my copy to come through the mail :)
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Postby the_gioy » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:49 pm

As I have posted before i did pick up my copy of troubleshooters from my local game store and i do like the new edition have looked through it I have noticed that they have brought back treason and commendation points which are always fun. Also i do believe they have some different mutations as well All is all I do like the new edition. I wish that they had kinda of broken off the GM section from the Player Section as they did in the other version. However this i a minor complaint. Also I must say that I do enjoy the art and the captions that appear the pictures.
The DVD is fantastic and I enjoyed the interviews very much. In addition I did use the sound effects and the different phrases during a mission I ran on Saturday evening. All in all my group (which included two new players) had a blast and are hungry for more. I am very excited to see what else we have in store for Troubleshooters and then the other two product lines when they launch.
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Postby PrinceYyrkoon » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:43 pm

Pardon me for still being utterly confused but,

If there is little change to the rules from the previous edition, what is the point to this new edition? If youre going to go for all three limited editions, youre talking, what?, £90? For what? A new cover and a CD?

Is this a game related decision or a marketing one?
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Postby Danforth » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:05 am

PrinceYyrkoon wrote:Pardon me for still being utterly confused but,

If there is little change to the rules from the previous edition, what is the point to this new edition?
The Troubleshooter book is little-changed from the previous edition's single rulebook. The IntSec book incorporates some of the previous edition's material too, some inspired by previous IntSec-play supplements, and some brand new stuff. The High Programmers book, I assume, will have more new material still, since there's very little previous to go on.

So you could buy the IntSec and High Programmer ones and/or keep on using the 2004 rulebook for Troubleshooters, with little to no game-related trouble.
PrinceYyrkoon wrote:If youre going to go for all three limited editions, youre talking, what?, £90? For what? A new cover and a CD?

Is this a game related decision or a marketing one?
The unlimited editions are a game-related decision (two new rulebooks, and the new Troubleshooter one brings the original one into line with them). I'd also argue that Black Missions was game-related as it gave us a lot of expensive PDFs, plus extra material, for a fiver.

The limited editions of IntSec and High Programmers, conversely, are a marketing one or at least a collector one, with a small print run to suit the small audience (i.e. people like me who asked Mongoose to make them!)
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Postby PrinceYyrkoon » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:59 am

Danforth wrote:
PrinceYyrkoon wrote:Pardon me for still being utterly confused but,

If there is little change to the rules from the previous edition, what is the point to this new edition?
The Troubleshooter book is little-changed from the previous edition's single rulebook. The IntSec book incorporates some of the previous edition's material too, some inspired by previous IntSec-play supplements, and some brand new stuff. The High Programmers book, I assume, will have more new material still, since there's very little previous to go on.

So you could buy the IntSec and High Programmer ones and/or keep on using the 2004 rulebook for Troubleshooters, with little to no game-related trouble.
PrinceYyrkoon wrote:If youre going to go for all three limited editions, youre talking, what?, £90? For what? A new cover and a CD?

Is this a game related decision or a marketing one?
The unlimited editions are a game-related decision (two new rulebooks, and the new Troubleshooter one brings the original one into line with them). I'd also argue that Black Missions was game-related as it gave us a lot of expensive PDFs, plus extra material, for a fiver.

The limited editions of IntSec and High Programmers, conversely, are a marketing one or at least a collector one, with a small print run to suit the small audience (i.e. people like me who asked Mongoose to make them!)
I can appreciate nice new hardbacks, etc.. Im just wondering why Paranoia needed a new edition. If the new books are little changed, then what is the point to releasing a new edition? Is it simply to get money from loyal Paranoia customers? Its certainly not for the games benefit, is it? The changes sound like they could have been included in a supplement or a pdf.

Call me old fashioned but I think that new editions of rpg rules are usually done for game-related reasons, rather than aesthetic or cosmetic ones.
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Postby Danforth » Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:44 pm

PrinceYyrkoon wrote: I can appreciate nice new hardbacks, etc.. Im just wondering why Paranoia needed a new edition. If the new books are little changed, then what is the point to releasing a new edition? Is it simply to get money from loyal Paranoia customers? Its certainly not for the games benefit, is it? The changes sound like they could have been included in a supplement or a pdf.
Well, we don't know how different IntSec and High Programmers will be from the Troubleshooter book yet; if there are loads, then a PDF covering them all would be a great rambling thing (and probably not free). Comes a point where it's simpler to print a new book.

Regarding releasing a supplement to cover other playstyles, as opposed to the three core book approach: they tried that with the 2004 edition's Extreme Paranoia. I'm assuming that sales were not stellar, so this time round they're trying something different.

Taking the Troubleshooter flavour of Paranoia alone for a moment: I would agree that rules tweaks alone which differentiate the 2004 edition from 2009's Troubleshooters core book are not great justification for a new edition. If that were all that was happening, I'd be pissed. But since they are launching the two new sublines, it makes good business sense to tweak the "original" core book too.

More generally, it seems to be something of a hobby gaming standard to update things after five years. Hell, West End brought out 2nd ed Paranoia a mere three years after 1st ed, and the rules were completely incompatible with the new edition! At least all our 2004 books are still pretty much valid even if Mongoose aren't printing any more of them.

I'm sure there's a money-spinning component to Mongoose's business plan, because they are indeed a business. I would like them to continue making money :)
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Postby PrinceYyrkoon » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:15 pm

Danforth wrote:
PrinceYyrkoon wrote: I can appreciate nice new hardbacks, etc.. Im just wondering why Paranoia needed a new edition. If the new books are little changed, then what is the point to releasing a new edition? Is it simply to get money from loyal Paranoia customers? Its certainly not for the games benefit, is it? The changes sound like they could have been included in a supplement or a pdf.
Well, we don't know how different IntSec and High Programmers will be from the Troubleshooter book yet; if there are loads, then a PDF covering them all would be a great rambling thing (and probably not free). Comes a point where it's simpler to print a new book.

Regarding releasing a supplement to cover other playstyles, as opposed to the three core book approach: they tried that with the 2004 edition's Extreme Paranoia. I'm assuming that sales were not stellar, so this time round they're trying something different.

Taking the Troubleshooter flavour of Paranoia alone for a moment: I would agree that rules tweaks alone which differentiate the 2004 edition from 2009's Troubleshooters core book are not great justification for a new edition. If that were all that was happening, I'd be pissed. But since they are launching the two new sublines, it makes good business sense to tweak the "original" core book too.

More generally, it seems to be something of a hobby gaming standard to update things after five years. Hell, West End brought out 2nd ed Paranoia a mere three years after 1st ed, and the rules were completely incompatible with the new edition! At least all our 2004 books are still pretty much valid even if Mongoose aren't printing any more of them.

I'm sure there's a money-spinning component to Mongoose's business plan, because they are indeed a business. I would like them to continue making money :)
All reasonable points, and I dont hate Mongoose for making money, thing is, if it seems like cynical money-making theres a bit of a problem.

The changes do seem to be cosmetic. And who said the old edition was broken anyway? These changes seem pretty arbitrary just to herald the new edition. Im pretty certain there will be little to surprise in the books that are coming, because we've already been told that the old edition is going to be fairly compatible with the new.

And, yes, West End did produce new editions, but, you know what?, West End have gone out of business, so its obviously not a good blueprint, is it?

There is a good interval for a new edition of an rpg, and, I can tell you, its around 10 - 12 years. And even then, theres got to be reasonable grounds for it. Anything else will eventually lead to bad feeling. Mongoose are begining to get a bad name for this. Do you know theres a new version of Runequest due? And its only TWO YEARS since they released the Deluxe version? This isnt good AT ALL.

I, like you, would like Mongoose to stick around, but theyre not going to do it by cynically fleecing the customer base are they?
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Postby Danforth » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:21 am

PrinceYyrkoon wrote: All reasonable points, and I dont hate Mongoose for making money, thing is, if it seems like cynical money-making theres a bit of a problem.
Be interesting to know how this "x.1" edition is being received in the wider RPG world, actually. Right here it's just you and me discussing things, but really I've got no idea how many people are seeing it as cynical money-making. I'm not an RPG scener, Paranoia is the only one I'm into.
PrinceYyrkoon wrote: The changes do seem to be cosmetic. And who said the old edition was broken anyway? These changes seem pretty arbitrary just to herald the new edition. Im pretty certain there will be little to surprise in the books that are coming, because we've already been told that the old edition is going to be fairly compatible with the new.
Again, I think it comes down to the other two rulebooks. Those have lots of new material. Then, if you're creating two new rulebooks, each of which reflects five years of the current system "in action", it would be churlish not to update the original one too.
PrinceYyrkoon wrote: And, yes, West End did produce new editions, but, you know what?, West End have gone out of business, so its obviously not a good blueprint, is it?
Touché :)
PrinceYyrkoon wrote: I, like you, would like Mongoose to stick around, but theyre not going to do it by cynically fleecing the customer base are they?
Agreed. I don't feel fleeced personally, but agreed. If I'm the only player who doesn't, Mongoose are in trouble :)

Mongoose have been careful to pitch IntSec and High Programmers as seperate sublines. Yes, if you want the whole "core" it will now cost you £75 rather than £25... so whether this consititutes a rip-off depends, I guess, on how much bigger the core is now, how much new and exciting gaming we'll get out of it.

Plus, of course, you can get by with just one rulebook, or even the 2004 rulebook, so nobody is being forced into an upgrade.

Interesting to know how many people outside this forum are aware of that, though :)
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Postby GamerDude » Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:18 am

I have to say I'm enjoying reading the "new" Paranoia. I'm glad the "XP" is gone even though it was cute when it first came out.

The new cover is nice, and in some ways better conveys what the game is about than the old because it's not the "You're a traitor. BANG! your dead"
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Postby Arkku » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:34 am

GamerDude wrote:I have to say I'm enjoying reading the "new" Paranoia. I'm glad the "XP" is gone even though it was cute when it first came out.
One might actually consider this edition “Paranoia 7” since XP was after the 5th edition so it could be called the 6th edition, which would make this the 7th (although of course skipping 3 and 4 was a bad joke to begin with). This referring to the newest release of the operating system, of course. For a Mac/Linux/Solaris/IRIX user like myself, it seems fitting that the insane control-freak Computer would have version numbers matching this OS. =)
GamerDude wrote:The new cover is nice, and in some ways better conveys what the game is about than the old because it's not the "You're a traitor. BANG! your dead"
Admittedly all other covers after the 1st edition have conveyed a sense of imminent and inevitable death for the troubleshooters involved. At least in the 1st edition cover it looks like there might be a fighting chance. =)

Still, I prefer the simplistic Black Missions cover (the only illustration is an ominous but laid-back symbol of the Computer). Too bad the interior illustrations do not match this elegance.

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