Torpedos rules

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Ezio
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Torpedos rules

Postby Ezio » Tue May 29, 2018 12:25 pm

Hello everybody.
I have some questions about torpedoes.

The old rules (2006-2007) provided torpedoes fire resolution at the turn end; for the long range Japaneise torpedoes at the next turn end.
In the new rules (VaS 2) there are not specific note about these arguments.
This means that the torpedoes fire is resolved immediately after launch?
And for long range Japaneise torpedoes, is it valid only special rule "Long Lance" or is it possible to launch this torpedoes in the Attack Phase?

For to evade the Torpedoes, is it possible to use Special Action "Evasive!" and Advanced Rule "Evading Torpedoes" in same turn?

If we launch torpedoes at extreme range (exemple: we launch English Mk IX Torpedoes at 10"), we have -2 for Extreme Range and -2 for Using Torpedoes; in this conditions it is impossible ti hit the target (we roll 6, but -2 and -2, the score is 2, and for to hit the target is need 4+).
Is it this correct?.

Thanks for your answers.
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Re: Torpedos rules

Postby dacis2 » Tue May 29, 2018 12:55 pm

1. Torpedo resolution - We played it as written with torpedoes resolving immediately.

2. Long Lance - The rules explicitly state "after fleets have been deployed but before the battle begins", so I think you would not be able to use the special attack after the battle begins. The Type 93's longer range is included in the weapon statistics anyway (30+ inch range, compared to around 10 inch range of other nations' torpedoes)

3. Evasion - In the evading torpedoes rule, it states that "Ships that did not move at least 3” in the turn or are performing Special Actions may not attempt to evade torpedoes." Since Evasive! is a Special Action, I think it cannot be used together with Evading Torpedoes.

4. Torpedo accuracy - That's how we played it. The chance of a torpedo hit at extreme range is pretty low.
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Re: Torpedos rules

Postby msprange » Wed May 30, 2018 11:50 am

This will be in the update next month, but...

After some thought, ships will now be able to use special actions while evading torps - just seems a bit silly not to. I was going to fold the evading torps rule into the Evasive! special action, but I am currently figuring that the SA covers random course changes in general, while evading torps is a reaction to a specific threat.

That said, there is an argument for folding everything into one special action, but that would mean predicting a torp attack rather than reacting to it...

Correct on using torps at very long ranges - unless you have some very powerful advantages, a really long ranged torp attack is a hail mary (not exactly sniping weapons).

Also, correct on immediate resolution. We initially had them rolling over turns but, by removing counters (we hates counters, precious!), it was just too much to track and went against VaS' fast and simple nature. You should be keeping track of ship damage and criticals, and that is about it. If you presume that a turn is a 'length of time' rather than a 'specific moment in time', it all plays out anyway.
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Re: Torpedos rules

Postby Greg Smith » Wed May 30, 2018 8:34 pm

With the long lance fan, if you roll a roll a 6 do all three AD hit one ship?

So if range affects torpedoes most torpedoes need get within 5" or 6" to hit on a 6. (or long range when firing at the side). Except for the Type 93, which can hit at 25.5" range on the side. Extreme range shots are impossible except against stationary targets.

Hmm. I do want torpedoes to have the same effect on the game that they did in first edition, but those ranges seem fiddly. Especially for those of us who play in centimeters.
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Re: Torpedos rules

Postby msprange » Thu May 31, 2018 9:01 am

If you roll a six on the fan salvo, the ship gets hit by one torpedo (roll DD as appropriate).

Can't help you with centimetres, but there is a rule coming in the next revision that basically rounds all fractional ranges down. Should solve the fiddliness.
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Re: Torpedos rules

Postby Condottiere » Thu May 31, 2018 9:27 am

I read somewhere the real value of the Long Lance was surprise, especially at night.

Incidentally, the Japanese trained very hard for night fighting.

It was superseded by the aircraft dropped variant, which is why you don't see more than a small number of specialized Japanese torpedo cruisers.
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Re: Torpedos rules

Postby msprange » Thu May 31, 2018 9:46 am

I think the fan salvo rules covers the surprise factor nicely.

I would be interested in a 'fleet rule' for Japanese night fighting, but let's see how their fleet stacks up as is (got a feeling they will be potent enough!).
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Re: Torpedos rules

Postby Greg Smith » Thu May 31, 2018 9:37 pm

We had a game tonight and torpedoes featured heavily. Please correct me if I made any mistakes.

First shot - a H class destroyer draws along side the Scharnhorst at point blank range, fires, hits and realises that the torpedo belt 3 completely negates the torpedoes 3DD.

Second the HMS Norfolk comes alongside the Admiral Hipper. Again at point blank range. The Hipper fails to evade. 2 torpedoes hit. 3 DD are rolled, they score 1,2,2,3.5.5 against the Hipper's armour 3. So they inflict 13 damage and 2 criticals (no confirmation needed). One crit is a crew and I roll a 1. One is weapons and I roll a 5.

The weapons crit inflicts all the damage & effects from 1-5. So the hipper loses turrets galore and takes massive damage.

So a single torpedo strike crippled the previously undamaged Hipper.
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Re: Torpedos rules

Postby dacis2 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:56 am

I thought torpedo belts are a die roll modifier to the damage dice, and not remove the damage dice.

Also, that sounds about right for a heavy cruiser taking a pair of torpedo hits, perhaps one close to the magazines.
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Re: Torpedos rules

Postby msprange » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:08 am

Torp Belts do indeed provide a modifier to each dice, not the number of dice - will check the wording on that to make it clearer.

As for a cruiser getting hit by a torp, this is something we discussed with the Official Naval Boffins at great length. A decent torp strike should certainly have the capability to cripple a cruiser, and it will ruin even a battleship's day.

Working as intended, and a good reason we should not make torps easy to hit!

It would be interesting for you all to start looking at tactics to defend against these quick close-in attacks - any ship coming that close early on in the battle should be paying a big price in return fire.
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Re: Torpedos rules

Postby msprange » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:09 am

Okay, checked wording:

"Whenever this ship is hit by a torpedo in its Q Turret arc, the Torpedo Belt score will be deducted from each Damage Dice rolled by the torpedo."

Thinking this was just a mis-read during the heat of the game?
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Re: Torpedos rules

Postby Greg Smith » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:14 pm

Both of us read it that way. We probably just weren't thinking that torpedo damage dice work differently.

Does that mean a ship with 5 armour and torpedo belt 2 can never be damaged by torpedoes in the side arc?
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Re: Torpedos rules

Postby msprange » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:25 am

Greg Smith wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:14 pm
Does that mean a ship with 5 armour and torpedo belt 2 can never be damaged by torpedoes in the side arc?
Remember, Armour is not counted against Devastating weapons. The only deduction in your example is the Torp Belt. Otherwise, just roll the Damage Dice and total them for the damage caused. No comparison with the Armour score needed.
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