Anti-Fighter Changes

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.

Would you guys agree with this type of change?

Poll ended at Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:46 pm

Yes
3
13%
No
18
75%
Yes but increase the Dodge modifiers by 1
1
4%
Decrease dodge modifiers by 1
0
No votes
Yes, we should use something similar to this but this is not the way to go.
2
8%
 
Total votes: 24
Morpheus1975
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Anti-Fighter Changes

Postby Morpheus1975 » Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:46 pm

In SFOS my group were hoping that Anti-Fighter will be altered. Removing a fighters dodge rating is just too easy and means fighters get slaughtered.

Anti-fighter should add +2 to a fighters dodge rating and
+1 for mini beam at long ranges.

So in all anti-fighter gives a +2 to a fighters dodge roll making an Starfury have a 4+ dodge vs anti-fighter.

Vs a minibeam weapon they have a +1 beyond 4 inches and a +3 within 4 inches.

This means vs a Mimbari mini-beam weapon a Starfury has a 3+ dodge outside of 4 and a 5+ within 4 inches.

We have also looked at giving fighters a +3 dodge vs e-mines or a flat 5+ or 6+ for any and all fighters to dodge e-mine attacks.

Many non-narn players feel e-mine is too powerful especially the G'Karith.

Vs any other Anti-fighter weapon the starfury would have a 4+ dodge.

Make fighters a little hardier vs beam weapons espcially those like the sentri which have a hull of only 4.
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Re: Anti-Fighter Changes

Postby lastbesthope » Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:21 pm

Morpheus1975 wrote:In SFOS my group were hoping that Anti-Fighter will be altered. Removing a fighters dodge rating is just too easy and means fighters get slaughtered.
Maybe, but that's what AF weapons are supposed to do, it's not like every ship has them.

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Postby Morpheus1975 » Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:36 pm

We agree that that is what they are for we just think that by removing the dodge modifier it makes it way too easy to kill/slaughter fighters. Even a Sharlin would take at least a few rounds to blow away 24 fighters. Right now you could kill twice that in a single round without much trouble if you have mini-beam.
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Postby Pauly_D » Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:40 pm

i voted no for change to AF weapons because as LBH said that is what they do
anyway there isnt actually that many AF weapons (with the exception of the Vree)
although i do think that Mini-Beam should lose AF because fighters are one of the few ways to get round dodge and that is just too unfair to do that
For Big weapons e.g. Battle Laser, Heavy Lasers and Mag Guns there should be rules for them to have a -1 against fighters as these are big slow weapons which should make it easier to avoid than normal weapons (similar to B5Wars)
About the Narn EMines, i think that the Narns need every advantage they can get at the moment so dont touch those E-Mines (i say that even though i am a Centauri player)
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:53 pm

Pauly_D wrote:although i do think that Mini-Beam should lose AF because fighters are one of the few ways to get round dodge and that is just too unfair to do that
A thought occurs to me. What are the rules on splitting dice on Mini-Beams? If they are the same as Beams, it becomes a matter of keeping Flights spread out before attacking, then overwhelming them with numbers (very like Narn).
For Big weapons e.g. Battle Laser, Heavy Lasers and Mag Guns there should be rules for them to have a -1 against fighters as these are big slow weapons which should make it easier to avoid than normal weapons (similar to B5Wars)
All non-A-F weapons are big slow weapons. That's why you can dodge them. Lasers, like all Beams, have restrictions already on attacking more than one target (as noted above).

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Postby Pauly_D » Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:58 pm

Wulf Corbett wrote:
Pauly_D wrote:For Big weapons e.g. Battle Laser, Heavy Lasers and Mag Guns there should be rules for them to have a -1 against fighters as these are big slow weapons which should make it easier to avoid than normal weapons (similar to B5Wars)
All non-A-F weapons are big slow weapons. That's why you can dodge them. Lasers, like all Beams, have restrictions already on attacking more than one target (as noted above).

Wulf
AOG split weapons up a lot more for example Heavy Laser had a -4 to hit, Twin Arrays (which in ACTA do not have AF) had +4 to hit and some weapons were inbetween
the point i was trying to make is that some weapons are a lot slower than others
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Postby The Darque One » Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:28 am

Wulf Corbett wrote: A thought occurs to me. What are the rules on splitting dice on Mini-Beams? If they are the same as Beams, it becomes a matter of keeping Flights spread out before attacking, then overwhelming them with numbers (very like Narn).
Wulf
doesn't say weather it splits dice like the standard beam or not.
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:50 am

The Darque One wrote:doesn't say weather it splits dice like the standard beam or not.
It'll be same as non-Beams then. That would make a sensible addition to the Mini-Beam rule, and limit their use sensibly.

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Postby lastbesthope » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:06 pm

Wulf Corbett wrote:
The Darque One wrote:doesn't say weather it splits dice like the standard beam or not.
It'll be same as non-Beams then. That would make a sensible addition to the Mini-Beam rule, and limit their use sensibly.

Wulf
Non beam weapons have no restriction on splitting AD, so that makes Mini Beams more powerful than BEams in that regard.

Doesn't it?

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Postby Wulf Corbett » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:17 pm

lastbesthope wrote:
Wulf Corbett wrote:
The Darque One wrote:doesn't say weather it splits dice like the standard beam or not.
It'll be same as non-Beams then. That would make a sensible addition to the Mini-Beam rule, and limit their use sensibly.
Non beam weapons have no restriction on splitting AD, so that makes Mini Beams more powerful than BEams in that regard.
What I meant was, as they are not specified in being limited, like Beams, for splitting, they are not limited. But that such a limit would make sense.

Wulf
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Postby lastbesthope » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:35 pm

Yes it would, maybe one for Mongoose to clarify.

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Postby Chernobyl » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:52 pm

given that minibeams don't have progressive damage like regular beam weapons, I'd expect them to be able to split fire like any "normal" weapon can.
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Postby lastbesthope » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:10 pm

You could argue it either way, since the stated rules don't say otherwise, I'd say they can split as per non Beam weapons.

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Re: Anti-Fighter Changes

Postby Silvereye » Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:26 pm

Morpheus1975 wrote:In SFOS my group were hoping that Anti-Fighter will be altered. Removing a fighters dodge rating is just too easy and means fighters get slaughtered.
As other have pointed out, thats why they are there. If you want to attack ships with fighters, pick one without Anti-Fighter defences. However, fighters tend to have good hulls so you have to concentrate some of the ADs to get a result, especially with the Weak systems.
Morpheus1975 wrote:Vs a minibeam weapon they have a +1 beyond 4 inches and a +3 within 4 inches.
Rather pointeless really, Mini-Beam weapons only count as Anti-Fighter at ranges of 4" or less.
Morpheus1975 wrote:This means vs a Mimbari mini-beam weapon a Starfury has a 3+ dodge outside of 4 and a 5+ within 4 inches.
Rather than 2+ outside 4" and no dodge within 4" as it is at the muinute, why? Personally, I would not waste a Fusion Cannon on any fighter outside of 4" unless they were my only available targets. Anti-Fighter work? Thats what Nials are for.
Morpheus1975 wrote:We have also looked at giving fighters a +3 dodge vs e-mines or a flat 5+ or 6+ for any and all fighters to dodge e-mine attacks.
Basically, the energy mine is a semi-controlled matter/anti-matter explosion, that generates similar energy and shockwaves to a very, very small supernova. Its not like a ship explosion where there are large pieces of debris and stuff that you can get out of the way of.

Morpheus1975 wrote:Many non-narn players feel e-mine is too powerful especially the G'Karith.
In no way particularly so. The G'karith can only fire 4 AD of them 20". It also only has a hull of 4. If you are having trouble destroying these ships then I really worry about your tactics. Overall, I have found the e-mines to be over-hyped weapons that need a tactical re-think to deal with. I would not send an Earth fleet to deal with the Narns in the same way I would send them to deal with the Centauri, or the Minbari. Each race has very different strengths and very different weaknesses.
Morpheus1975 wrote:Vs any other Anti-fighter weapon the starfury would have a 4+ dodge.

Make fighters a little hardier vs beam weapons espcially those like the sentri which have a hull of only 4.
Why waste AP or Super-AP beams on a fighter? I get the feeling you rely too much on the 4 flight patrol choice of Earth fighters in your games. Against the G'Karith, try taking a couple of Hermes transports (they even come with free Starfuries!). Then see how the G'karith copes with a total of 4AD Precise, Super-AP missile at a range of 30" in the first turn (Will hit a G'Karith on a 2+).

As for the debate on splitting Mini-Beams.

At less than 4" range, there is no real issue unless you are splitting onto other targets more than 4" beyound that. But if you are getting swarmed by figheters you should be probably be more concerned with destroying them before they fire. Out-side of 4" I would have to agree with the "Its not a Beam weapon" crowd. The Mini-Beam trait allows it to fire as an Anti-Fighter weapon, but not to keep re-rolling its hits like a Beam. Its not a Beam weapon so does not suffer from the Beam's advantages or drawbacks (of not being able to engage multiple targets more then 4" away from each other).
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